Whose Jesus will people find at Journey?

hi jim!

which issues specifically are you reffering to as being “milk toasted” or delicately avoided?

In general, by NOT taking a position when a challenge to Christian values comes up, you are avoiding and milk-toasting. Often times, to remain quite is to agree. But worse than that, I believe there are
explicit examples of undermining long-standing Christian values.

I believe that one’s position on homosexuality in it’s various forms, as well as heterosexual activity outside of marriage is, for sure, one of the litmus tests of the Christian’s foundation. To yield and say “I don’t know what I believe here” (which came from two of Journey’s leaders) or to re-evaluate Scripture simply because we might offend people (which is RCA’s position) is milk-toast or at least avoidance. Why do I believe this is is an important issue? Why do I believe this is a sin even though Jesus did not say much about it? (By the way, God DID… “Thou shall not commit adultery.”) Because the institution of a man/woman marriage, for life, as the foundation of a secure, nurturing environment for raising children… for teaching children the importance of yielding their wants/desires to authority, first to their parents, and later to God when they become more independent… is of paramount importance to the Kingdom of God. To lift up alternative relationships as good and wholesome (which is what you’ll be doing if you cannot call it a sin), and to soon bless same-sex marriage, unmarried partners, and divorce as acceptable (which is next on the downslide) is not the Jesus I think we find in the Bible.

It may be difficult for many people to see what has happened in the past 50 years or so… but first came the assault on whether we could hold up the Bible as a standard of values for the whole country. (We lost that one.) Then came the assault on whether parents should discipline their children (and now we have several generations of people who respect no authority). People have lost the virtue of sacrificing one’s own desires for something bigger, more important… and selfishness has torn apart marriages and families. Divorce has become rampant because people put themselves first. They are being told by today’s culture that it’s right to pursue their own happiness and bail out on their marriage commitments when things get tough. And now, the full-frontal assault on marriage itself = Lifting up alternative relationships as normal, and the church accepting them as Ok. That people who disagree are hateful, narrow minded, old-fashioned, and interpreting Scripture incorrectly.

I believe a Christian has an obligation to defend the man/woman marriage model that is evident in Scripture, and to call everything else ‘not Ok’. I don’t mean shake a finger at people and say they’ll burn in hell. I mean saying, with confidence and without hesitation, that this is not God’s desire for us. Now, if we encounter people in that lifestyle, we should love them, welcome them, etc, but NOT hold them up as an example of what pleases God. We should NOT let them become examples of Christian ideals (leaders).

Would Journey directly confront heterosexual couples actively engaged in a sexual relationship, and maybe even raising children, and say “this is sin?.. You shouldn’t be doing it!” Or, would you also argue that Scripture doesn’t say much about sexual relationships outside of marriage? And why is that such a big thing? Well, it’s pretty obvious that when a woman becomes pregnant, she loses much of her ability to fend for herself in this competitive world. A mother who does successfully fend for herself usually must sacrifice time and caring for her children. Further, a woman who becomes pregnant without the benefit of a committed relationship and legal contract, (marriage) is even more unfortunate.. and worst of all, it’s the innocent children who suffer the most. So it seems obvious to me that God condemns a man/woman who engage in sex without the commitment of marriage because the result is far too often an unfortunate child who bears most of the injury. The wisdom of God’s design for the man/woman marriage (for life) commitment is pretty evident. How can we challenge this? Why would we weaken it?

Sex outside of marriage is called adultery, and God commanded against that. Did God specifically say that adultery excludes people of same sex? Did God specifically say that adultery excludes unmarried people? So, unless you’re saying adultery only applies to people who are currently married and having sex outside of that relationship, then how can you condone any other sexual activity? What is Journey’s stand on this?

If you are going to shy away from calling sex outside of marriage (adultery) a sin, then I think you are milk-toasting a critical issue. If you agree that sexual activity outside of marriage (adultery) IS a sin, then you MUST define homosexual activity as sin as well (they’re not married). Your next question to wrestle with is why cannot same sex couples get married? Because the only way for their lifestyle to not be a sin is to get married. What is Journey’s stand on this? It’s a slippery slope.

The feeling (and value system) prevalent throughout many Journey ‘members’ is ‘live and let live’. I get this from many of the postings… many of them from people respected as upstanding Christians. Most people cannot, with confidence, challenge sinful behavior. They don’t want to offend. They don’t feel confident to. Today’s culture condemns a person who defends a value if it makes someone else wrong. I believe, if asked, most would say that Jesus was too harsh when He said He was the only way to the Father. Surely, a lot of other ‘good’ people, like jews and muslims, can go the Heaven too. Yikes, you mean to say God is so harsh that good people go to hell simply because they don’t believe in Christ?

Being a Christian carries with it some heavy responsibility.
- Yes. There is only ONE WAY to salvation. Not my idea… Jesus said it.
- Yes, sex outside of marriage IS a sin. Not my idea, God said it.
- Yes, divorce is a sin. When you made that promise to your spouse and to God, it did not have an escape
clause. Unless it did, renigging on your promise is a sin. Granted, sometimes it’s necessary, sometimes even
the right thing to do… but never is it (and what led up to it) Ok, because people get hurt, God gets hurt.

So, how can we look people, friends, family, loved ones, in the eye and say they are sinners? We are ALL sinners.
Me too. Does that mean we look at those sinners in judgement? I don’t think so. We are ALL there with them.
We don’t condemn them, for sure. We just say the situation is not what God wanted. Unfortunate? Yes. A fact? Yes. Is it Ok to go there? No. Aspire for something much better… reach for what God has intended for you.

But then, how will people know what God has intended if their church leadership… the ones people look to most often for moral direction.. is afraid to defend what God and Jesus stand for? (I don’t mean to aim that comment directly at Journey leadership, as if you were failing, ONLY to emphasize the responsibility you bear.)

I don’t mean to offend or hurt anyone. I feel it is my duty to defend what I believe Christianity stands for, and has for hundreds of years.

The Journey has addressed some difficult topics but in general this has been a concern of mine for churches in general. It is so easy to just go with the flow and many mainline denominations have chosen to do just that by taking the latest politically correct position of the day. Many of those same churches are fading as people practice the law of two feet. Personally, I would rather be guilty of displeasing people that displeasing God.

Jim V, I’d say you have stated things pretty well in my opinion. Although both Jim’s sort of imply the Journey doesn’t have a position. As Jim G says, the Journey has addressed many extremely difficult and sensitive topics on Sunday mornings over the years, including this one. If my memory serves me, the ‘stance’ at the end of the day was that homosexuality was a sin, but that we need to be supporting and loving of the person (but not the sin), and the Journey will ALWAYS be a loving, safe, and open place where all people can explore, question, and grow in their faith. Also, sexual orientation, promiscuity, and divorce are NOT a salvation issues.

I certainly don’t believe a vocal hard line, fire & brimstone stance is useful or productive in any way on this subject. But do people think that if a church isn’t overly vocal on a stance that they are accepting? Or is the reality that they are trying to help people grow in their faith and connection with God and let the Holy Spirit do the ‘hard work’. If we are insensitive by ‘displeasing’ or offending people so they stop coming to church and build up a wall to the Holy Spirit’s work…will that please God? I believe most churches are trying to give people a loving chance at building faith rather than just taking the politically correct position of the day….. but of course there are always exceptions.

If you have been coming to the Journey for a while, you probably realize how many hard subjects we have covered. I am constantly amazed every week at how well Jeff teaches on life and faith challenges, while being Biblically true yet sensitive to people. My guess is that anyone who thinks he should be less concerned with peoples feelings and really ‘preach it’ probably don’t think they personally have an issue in that area.

I don’t believe anyone but the Holy Spirit can truly affect a change in anyone’s faith. Our job is to prepare and encourage people to receive the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

First off stances can be good and bad. In sports a good stance can give you an upperhand or give you defeat. A good stance generally is one where you are on your toes with the ability to move but move with leverage. A bad stance is when you are flat footed and even if you are firm a good knock sideways will throw you off balance.

I am always trying to see things in perspective. See how big is big, and how relative is relative. I am caught between two thoughts right now. One is love everybody as much as i can, i might have different views than other people but I want to show them love. that’s numero uno to god as far as im concerned. My next though is Jesus at the synagogue in a righteous wrath. When do you need to put a foot down? Do you put it down at a few minor instances? Or do you put it down when your worlds about to be crushed. And who’s to say when that line is.

Right now I feel I am edging on the side of love. I am scarred of gods wrath but i think his grace is bigger than that.

One of the many things I appreciate about The Journey is that we do not shy away from discussing serious topics: addiction, divorce, hell, sex, other religions, poverty, homosexuality, etc.

Jeff has a special gift for discussing these issues with a spirit of respect, humility, passion, truth and love. The same can be said for many of the other speakers and teachers we’ve had at church, the Journey Growth Academy (JGA), and various small groups.

If you think I’m milk-toasty because I’ve chosen not to share my opinions on sensitive subjects on a web site, I’m okay with that. In today’s culture, many people don’t care what you know until they know that you care.

My preference for addressing difficult subjects with people is to get to know the person over time, listen to the person’s story and let the Holy Spirit guide me in what to say (or not to say). If the person is receptive, then I’ll bring scripture into the discussion.

There are plenty of churches that do a good job of beating people over the head with the Bible. I’m glad The Journey isn’t one of those churches.

Sometimes I can be a complete idiot. I’ve just learned a valuable lesson in humility. If I practiced the very values that I argue so fervently for, I would have taken this discussion to Jeff in person before posting much of this here. I just had the opportunity to sit 1-on-1 with Jeff and discuss many of the issues I said Journey was milk-toast about, or was avoiding, and I must say, I was out of line. I apologize to Journey leadership, and to many of you whom I have offended.

Having said that, I want to re-state the original question. In a church that is boldly wrestling with serious issues, many challenges to Christian faith will arise. Many times people are earnestly seeking God’s will and spiritual guidance in making these challenges. How does the church convey the Biblical stand and uphold the ideals that Christianity stands for in a sensitive way that does not exclude people? How do we insure that the ideals people find are truly Biblical and not contemporary opinion?

Am I the only one who feels the postings on this website are skewed towards contemporary opinion and that few Christians get involved in any depth to take a stand for their faith?

I’m not good at this…. I’m learning how to stand up for my faith, and in the process, I’m bound to make mistakes.
Instead of watching from the sidelines, I’m putting it out there and learning a lot about myself and my faith.
Egg on my face and all, it’s worth doing.

Nigel, I highly, highly recommend that you have a talk with Jeff.

That we are all learning to discuss / process / talk about faith and life. Discussion via a website is even more challenging… thank you to everyone who has attempted to say challenging ideas with grace.

Thanks Jim for your input and our time together talking this morning.
I appreciate that… but I really don’t want to talk with Nigel :)
Anyone who uses a picture of himself.. holding a shot gun.. makes me nervous.

Whose Jesus will people find at Journey?

I hope and pray it is my Jesus! :) A Jesus that loves unconditionally. A Jesus who accepts people as they are—-flaws, scars, wounds, broken, sinful, etc. I’m grateful for that Jesus because only he knows that I would or should have been struck dead by lightning for my past sins. It’s the Jesus that looks at the heart of a person and not just their outward actions or appearances. It’s the Jesus that knows the depth of a person’s soul. It’s the Jesus of second chances and sometimes more. It’s the Jesus that takes time to listen to people’s questions and doubts. It’s the Jesus that will keep stretching us to become the person he created us to be. It’s the Jesus that will make us uncomfortable at times. It’s the Jesus that celebrates our oneness in him and our differences. It’s the Jesus that is currently getting me to “talk” about faith during the week when I could be watching reruns Friends or Seinfeld. It’s the Jesus that has me praying for clarity and wisdom on a daily basis.

That’s my Jesus! Does he look like yours?

As it seems to me, after hanging with the Journey for almost a year and a half that most of my real questions have to do with where am I and what am I doing? I know the Bible pretty well, have had numerous discussions /debates about various subjects and in the end it is God’s spirit that does the convicting, not me. I seem to find that the more I give to various opportunities the more I see God in all of us. I don’t agree with some the opinions stated throughout the Journey, but I do believe it is this open environment that attracts many of the “un-churched”. This is good. Is was sort of funny, moving to Pioneer… Some were worried that the newer, cleaner location would not be comfortable enough to attrach certain people. I for one am glad God’s word is spoken each week by Jeff’s message, spoken by the folks that fill the chairs each week, spoken in Journeyland, spoken by the setup and tear down crews etc.

In general, I very much support the diciplines and commands God has given us in His word. I also very much support loving all God had put in our path. Our world is a difficult place to navigate and build our faith. The more I learn about God’s character and His grace, the more I seem to focus on me and what am I doing to be God’s hands to those around me, saved or not, following God;s commandment or not. I need to follow His commandments, the first and most important is to love one another. Jesus said we will be known as His by our love for each other.

I am just catching up on this line of posts and wanted to throw a quick point out there. The posts on the site are from a handful of people who enjoy discussing, debating, and throwing things out there. The majority of people aren’t posting, amny have never been on the site, and some who signed up originally haven’t been back. So, we can’t assume that this site really reflects the Journey more than the opinions of the people posting.

There are well over 300 + adults who are regular attenders and participants in The Journey community.. my guess is there are 299 various opinions about most topics as well .. and frankly the interaction between ideas, experience, and even disagreements of people who are genuine (and speak with grace to one another) are good things - and grow faith.

The opposite is a dogmatic “everyone MUST Agree to every point” approach. We don’t roll like that

Several things have never / will never change about The Journey’s teaching.

We are desiring people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus. Jesus Christ - who stepped into our world to save us from sin.. and offer a release from the effects of sin - ultimately bringing Divine Grace and Truth simultaneously.
Discussion, debates, and even disagreements about spiritual topics are good, but we as a church will major on introducing people to Jesus. On this point, there will be no detouring.