More Jesus & Spirituality

I agree with almost everything...the discussions, the deeper challenges, etc. I also think that we need to have something available for prayer. Writing on a card is not enough...but in a possible "prayer tent" there needs to be options also...pray with someone, a space to go and pray alone at anytime during the service, a prayer journal, lots of possibilities.

However, I don't agree with having communion every Sunday. One church I attended had communion according to the church calendar (you know it had to be the third sunday of the full moon of the monkey year). It was just added to the service. I hated it. Another church I went to had communion every Sunday. It felt more like part of a "church ritual". I loved having communion on Sunday at the Journey..reason being that it had even more significance/meaning because of the message and the whole experience. I would love to have more experiences like that....more times of communion on Sunday mornings...but I don't want it to become just part of Sunday morning ritual or corner.

My thoughts---for what they are worth.

Tanya and I came from a church whose foundations were laid on discontent. We were all unhappy with the direction our mother church was headed in. Our common vision was one of a negative reaction to what the mother church was, rather than a positive expression of what we were about. We had a great mission statement: Love God more, love others more, reach the unreached. But the true philosophical foundation was “We are not what we came from.”

To make matters worse, the church was divided between conservative people who wanted a Home Church, i.e. a safe place to come to raise their kids in a “godly environment,” and people who were more mission minded, where we sought to connect with the undiscipled people of Lansing, MI.

It took about 10 years for that sour seed to obliterate the church. It is now a fragmented, and in my opinion, self-righteous congregation of about 50 people. The Home Church people won and the mission-minded people all left. This experience is a big part of why Tanya and I left institutional church. The experience in our church reinforced our growing belief that a significant segment of the church in America is perfectly fine with leaving people behind spiritually as long as we can have a friendly, safe place to hear about God and raise our kids.

I’m still a n00b at Journey but the value that I most like about Journey, at least in concept, is that it is oriented around creating an environment where undiscipled people can come and safely explore faith without having a lot of Christian baggage and incidental stuff forced on them. I deeply, deeply believe that the culture is looking for credible spiritual avenues and is simultaneously energetically rejecting religion and religious experiences. People are open to the mystical, the sublime, the inexplicable and the powerful experiences of spiritual life. They are not looking for Bible verses, Jesus slogans, religious activities and the like.

After a couple years of trying to convert my church-going friends that there was a different model available yet having no one show any interest, I realized that the Home versus Mission struggle is very significant. I also realized that people who are Home-minded are almost completely disinterested in anything related to Mission. However, there is a huge segment of people outside traditional Churchianity that are extremely open — yea verily, even hungry for — a Mission experience that helps them explore faith on their own, culturally-driven terms.

If you’ve read some of my other posts, you know that I don’t believe Sunday morning is the most important experience of a disciple’s week. I think Josh Shipp called it a celebration, a launching point for what we will experience and what we did experience. I think there’s some wisdom in his perspective.

And so, as a church in the beginning throes of a rebirth, a redesign, a relaunch, perhaps even a chrysalis transformation, we need to reaffirm our commitment to create an environment on Sunday that is conducive to helping undiscipled people connect with God and with their world in more meaningful ways. Jeff Wenke has asserted repeatedly that the redesign does not mean we are retooling the mission of the church. The mission stays the same. The structure and methodology is what’s changing.

I freely admit that I am hypersensitive to anything that I interpret that remotely resembles the establishment of Home Church, and so I may be over-stating myself here. However, I am willing to take the risk of asking the question: Are the things mentioned in this post moving us closer to a Home church or a Mission church?

Though I am not sure that the things mentioned here belong in Sunday morning’s experience in their entirety, I too have a deep hunger for communion, for meaningful discussions of the word, for transformation of who I am in the presence of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But I wonder if the context for these experiences is not Sunday morning but in small groups.

Brian Underhill has asked about LTGs and small groups. What is happening with these groups? Frances too has asked questions about how people grow in the context of small groups. The original disciples had their core spiritual experiences in the context of fellowship with each other. They spent a lot of time together. They grew on the basis of that close contact, the continual rubbing of one another’s hearts, minds and souls together. It wasn’t so much the feeding of the people or the confrontations with the spiritual leaders that built their experience of God, but the daily stuff of fellowship.

So my question then is this: Is Sunday morning the best place for what we hunger for, given the mission of the Journey?

I wonder if what we need to do is ensure these kinds of experiences are present in our small groups instead of Sunday morning. Is it reasonable for us to keep Sunday morning oriented around as neutral an environment as possible for undiscipled people to explore and experiment? Heck, is it a great environment for you and me to explore and experiment?!

I wonder if it would make more sense for us to take our hunger for “more” and build it in small groups instead of Sunday morning.

And here’s the kicker:
What would happen if we saw our small groups as more important to our spiritual growth than Sunday morning? Could we be content with Sunday being about the undiscipled person and our small groups being about deeper growth for us?

I believe in God because every once in a while, I hear a voice that says, “You’re my favorite.”

I want to avoid falling into a false dichotomy between "what is good for me" versus "what is good for normal or undiscipled people." The dichotomy comes from the classical churches on one side, and seeker-sensitive churches on the other.

I want to find a third way -- specifically, spiritual practices that are non-threatening but still real.

(But don't get me started about small groups versus large groups. Not in this topic, anyway.)

Hitting on what Dave said, about growing deeper in small groups. I have to bring up the fact that our "traditional" practice of communion has stemmed from Passover. Which was celebrated, in a small group, usually your family, or people you invited into your family setting. Maybe Dave has something here...celebrating these kinds of things in our small groups.

A question I always tend to bring up, is the way we even partake in communion how God intended it? Passover was meant to be celebrated once a year. Did Jesus want us formally celebrating this new meaning of the Passover more often? Just some food for thought...

--brandi

I like to eat more than once a year. :-)

But I have posted my experience with communion roots on the communion topic: http://j2.dreamhosters.com/node/54#comment-217

I think the third way is ideal. I’d love it. Is it possible? Is there a way to innovate this kind of spirituality?

What are the spiritual disciplines? Prayer. Fasting. Communion. Fellowship. Silence. Meditation. Study. Simplicity. Submission. Confession. Worship. Guidance. Celebration. [all taken from Richard Foster]

Can these be created in such a way that an undiscipled person can engage them and experience benefit from them without having an active relationship with Jesus?

If not are there any other kinds of spiritual experiences that can yield some kind of experience that isn’t specifically tied to the classic disciplines. E.g. movies, music, art, conversation, etc.

I’m not sure, though, that I agree that there is a false dichotomy between “what is good for me” and “what is good for normal or undiscipled people.” There is a specific relationship between deriving benefit from the experience of spiritual disciplines and an active connection with God. Can you please drill down into more detail in this concept so I can understand what you mean?

However, one thing has intrigued me and puzzled me for many years: the Court of the Gentiles. It was an outer court to the temple and its presence clearly indicates that God intended for Gentiles to approach him in some form of connection/worship/experience. Does anyone know specifically what the intent and practice was for the Court of the Gentiles? That might give us a hint into how to bring about what Jon is suggesting…

I believe in God because every once in a while, I hear a voice that says, “You’re my favorite.”

Dave, I think we are talking about evangelism vs. discipleship. Conventionally, evangelism is what you do to bring people to salvation, while discipleship is what you do once they've "crossed the line." And in both cases, it has been about conveying data -- you know, that right thinking (orthodoxy) leads to right living (orthopraxy).

But the purpose of the spiritual disciplines is to shape us: orthopraxy leads to orthodoxy. If we focus on doing specific things which lead us into the life, mission and passion of God, the distinction between those who have changed their thinking and those who have not becomes less important.

I've been looking for specific things that would be helpful to those already committed to Jesus, and those who are just beginning to explore. And now, thanks to Mike Frost, I have a set of practices! …But you weren't there, you missed it, neener neener neener. ;-)

I recently complained to Vanessa that the band never has their hands reaching out to God...
Would love to see us really move with the Spirit on stage.

The Sunday meetings are a unique time when we can all come together and I believe that God wants to do something special in those kind of gatherings on a level that we might not see in smaller gatherings. What I see now is that we are "seeker" focused and what I am longing for are meetings that are completely God focused but yet accessible to the inexperienced. When the Holy Spirit is present and active stuff happens and people change without hype. "Unless the Lord builds the house the people labor in vain that build it"

Yeah, that is something that has to be learned and practiced... how to yield to the HS... it is risky... but worth the risk.

I believe there is a clue in that for us... to God's heart on the matter... we come together to worship God but be also have some means or practices to make Him accessible to the inexperienced... also King David set up the tabernacle in a place that was accessible to the people... he hired worshippers and musicians who served in shifts and served as a type of curtain of sorts to make God accessible... he inhabits the praises of his people.

Sounds like a great idea but God is not always "safe". He can be very mystical and strange.... to Annanais and Sapphira he was even fatal. Sometimes I think he even tries to offend us... to push our buttons... I do that with my kids sometimes to stretch them... but I still love them. I have been in a lot of meetings that were anything but safe... but they were wonderful and I will never forget them and the people I met.

If prophecy is the most important spiritual gift according to Paul we should be working on honing our prophetic skills more. I know that in my life prophetic words from others have been very important to my faith.

Our expressions of worship (not music performance) are a means by which others can touch God and a means by which we can make this spiritual experience accessible to the "Court of the Gentiles."

I think we underestimate the spiritual acuity of seekers when we try to "tone down" the worship experience and limit ourselves to real worship at only special "deeper" events. By doing this, we fail to recognize the shift our culture has made toward acceptance of spiritual expression and we even assume that they don't have the capacity or inclination to explore this area, until they have "converted."

Tanya Reynolds
http://www.tanyamreynolds.com
http://tanyareynolds.blogspot.com

I often feel like we talk down to folks on Sun AM... I believe people who come to church are really looking for a spiritual experience. I have found that the people typically offended by strange supernatural stuff are usually religious types who want God in a nice clean box.

How do you think I / we “talk down” to people who have no Bible knowlege and who are coming into The Journey with their arms crossed? What do you mean? Can you give me examples?

Some of the strongest positive responses have been said to me by people who say, “I’m glad you explained that” because they go to churches where everyone seems to know Bible stories referenced, or where in the Bible stuff is…
The other thing I try to do is to “acknowlege and even validate” perceptions / opionions people have about Jesus / Church / Bible / Christians —- and then move forward from there.

These have been key elements of our approach since day 1 - and the reason we put the words: “Judgemental, irrelevant, boring, hypocritical” on the front of our little black cards.

I’m curious.. .what you see / hear as the “talk down” part?

IMO, Jeff does an excellent job of conveying spiritual truths in an unintimidating way. Our first Sunday at Journey was when Jeff handled the Genesis creation account. I was so pumped that it wasn’t handled from the typical right-wing conservative “24 literal hours” perspective that most people associate with Christianity. The approach Jeff used totally dovetails with my understanding of how God shapes himself to be revealed in a way that “Gentiles” can receive him. I think Jeff and the Journey openly stepped up to stereotypes and treated them honestly and with a willingness to have people be dialog about them. Not only did the stereotypes not talk down to people, it actually elevated their critiques of our hypocrisy by treating them as credible.

After our first few weeks at Journey, I told people back in Michigan that I was impressed with Jeff’s ability to walk the line between asserting Jesus as God but also at the same time, give people flexibility in their ability to wrestle with different ideas.

In contrast, my experience as a recovering Evangelical Christian has been that most pastors talk down to people with the same stale, rehashed “correct” doctrine and teachings that seem to be recycled over and over in Christian books and sermons. Dissent is typically not tolerated within evangelicalism, unless one is willing to risk being labeled “unbiblical.” Some of the most intolerant, nastiest people I’ve known exist in a world of rigid Christian dogmatism.

Jeff is not like that at all and I find his approach encouraging and refreshing. How many evangelical pastors do you know who would genuinely and immediately apologize in public after making light of the Wiccan faith? Exactly. Zero.

And at the risk of sounding horrible, I had pretty much given up on hoping anything innovative ever coming out of the mouth of any pastor. Jeff has restored my confidence that there is something different to talk about and I believe that his approach is well-received by undiscipled people.

I believe in God because every once in a while, I hear a voice that says, “You’re my favorite.”

Two things got me really thinking about this… one was my experiences at Vintage Faith church in Santa Cruz where I really started to take a hard look at what we are doing here… another was Shel’s comment about telling stories about a guy named “Paul” instead of saying something to the effect of “many of you may not know who Paul is”… I know quite a number of folks who attend the Journey from before they came here and I know they know who Paul is… another was Tanya’s comment… “I think we underestimate the spiritual acuity of seekers when we try to “tone down” the worship experience and limit ourselves to real worship at only special “deeper” events”… she really put words to my gut level feelings. I must say this last Sunday was great… I love the healing story that Jeff shared… that was truly very powerful. Testimonies like that are always the best… nobody can deny an experience like that. The movie clip reminded me of personal experiences near Mexico city. In one encounter among many… a friend of mine called me for help… I saw a young lady thrashing around in the dirt and screaming and her family around her looking for help. I laid hands on her and she relaxed and laid on the ground still then started to giggle like a little girl… her facial experession relaxed and changed too.

Jeff, I don’t think you “talk down” at all. I think your willingness to be honest about difficult things is good for everyone, from the atheist who is skeptical about it all to the lifelong Christian who has accepted it all without questioning it. (They need each other! You bring everyone to the same table.)

One thing I wish for in our time together on Sundays is more time to explore the mystical nature of our faith. The menu of worship stations we had a couple of Sundays ago is a great example of what I am looking for — not just for me, but for people to dabble in. Another good example is the listening times we practiced in the series on spiritual disciplines. I get the impression that alt.worship stations were a regular part of Deeper. I for one do not think they are inaccessible to newbies. In fact, I think my friends would be curious (especially stations that are whimsical and fun — mysticism does not have to be brooding).

I think the Journey has occasionally veered into trying to entertain people. Remember, this is the generation that grew up listening to Kurt Cobain singing, “Here we are now, entertain us.” The danger with happy-clappy church is that the smiles feel fake. (Genuine laughter, though, is welcoming, and I’d say it’s one of our gifts through Jeff’s infectiousness.)

Maybe “mystical” is the wrong word. I want to tap in to people who say, “I’m not religious, but I am spiritual.”

each member of the band is at a different place. they are free to express themselves in worship. some choose to, some don’t. some days are diff than others. they’ve never ever been told not to express. and on the flip side, i’m not gonna coach them. it has to be genuine.

yeah, worship and expressions of worship can’t be forced… defeats the purpose and I think that would quench the Spirit… It can be taught and caught however. That is something that could be practiced midweek at the band practice or individually with ipod and headphones… I get into some real worship at work in my cube (with my hands on the keyboard however) with my headphones and ipod. It really is a heart thing but at some point the body will need to respond to make it a bigger experience for the individual.

Ha.
I’d lift my hands, but they are a little “busy” during the worship time!
I’m told I stomp my feet though….

Nigel-

I love to see you do your thing up there… keep it up.

Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater

So that old saying really didn’t mean much until I gave the two week old a bath… : )

I like Jim’s nudge to some how still convey depth while being “accessible.” Mr Rob Bell says in a Nooma clip that a lot of people react to religion and end up also closing themselves off to God. He talks about how they can get the two lumped together.

In Journey 1.0 there was a lot of throwing out of religion. GOOD. I think the question is how can we continue to do this (throw out the bathwater) but still keep God in it all. Journey seemed to have some really good reasons to keep out things like communion and “Deeper-ish” types of worship sets. It sounds like the “Journey” (the people) would like to see those sort of transcendent moments a bit more often…

Here’s to a clean, new, baby!

And what about the little shots of grape juice in plastic shot glasses? : ) I have really been bothered lately (As a church leader) about how I perpetuate a “sterile” and “religious” act that is so different than the “upper room” context with friends and dinner that Jesus gave the command “do this in remembrance of me”

This is my first time chiming in. My husband Kent and I were original launchers and were sad to bid farewell to the Journey when we moved to Michigan last year. I remember discussing this very topic that you are all wrestling with now. We knew the tendency was going to be very focused on the seeker at the beginning. We poured so much energy into being intentional. However, the tension arises when the seeker is no longer a new seeker. They want to be ‘fed’ and to participate in all the more building aspects of being a follower of Christ. The problem we saw then and that you all seem to be struggling with now is that once we personally are past the initial seeking, we forget what drew us there. At the very core of what the Journey is and why it was started was to reach out to those who are seeking Jesus. We have to be willing to be part of the community to reach out to others - Sunday mornings being the most obvious time for this. Get creative for how else you do prayer, communion, deeper Bible study, etc. But it is a slippery slope to become ‘us’ focused and not ‘out’ focused.