Should we promote or sell the Journey or should we promote or sell Christ? What if we downplayed the organizational aspects of the church and emphasized the spritual/social aspects?
Jim, I want to do both. I want to “sell” the Journey and I want to promote Christ.
Your question assumes we have to do one or the other and frankly since the beginning of The Journey I’ve done both… I want to up-play the organizational aspects and have people say WOW about our church and then I want to up-play the reason we are doing this.. and our overtly stated goal of becoming fully devoted followers of Christ - and have people say WOW about Jesus’ impact on our lives.
I sure don’t think celebrating the end of an era at STHS means we are only promoting an organization… and for me personally… I just wrote 45 little notes to people I am re-invited to our celebration this Sunday… I hope they come and hear about The Journey and about Christ.
Yesterday (sunday) was a bit of a bummer because it was all organizational talk and no Jesus. A few people told me they were disappointed, one said “typical Journey” and another “waste of time”.
Yesterday 2nd service was packed with people but we covered just 1 Bible verse in passing. The organizational changes are totally exciting…I just hope we don’t spend next week again on this only at the expense of the Jesus message!
The casting of the vision and the mission of the Journey was a needed message in light of what our next steps are going to be. I’d bet money that if we had tried to have a “vision casting night” during the week, very few people would have showed up. Sunday morning was the best time in my opinion. Plus there were lots of “Jesus messages” throughout the experience…the singing, the video, the readings…
I sat in front of a brand new visiting person on Sunday morning. This person LOVED hearing about the vision and the mission of the Journey. He knew right away what we were about and what to expect. He plans on coming back.
bummer about what brian heard. i had some friends come who haven’t been in over 6 months. afterward, i asked them if they were bored stiff. they surprised me by almost knocking me over with their excitement. for them, it was a huge encouragement because the next stage of our church spoke to where they’re at personally in their faith. they even called me later in the evening to tell me how excited they were about the approach the journey’s taking in the name of Jesus.
i like Jim’s original question.. just to clarify, we do a mission/vision/values series every year intentionally to remind folks or engage newer people with what the journey’s about. First of all, it’s good leadership principle to recast vision. And secondly, it always proves valuable for people who are exploring the Journey/Jesus/God/religion/Christianity.
I agree with Brian, that the Sunday message was mostly focused on the organizational aspects of church. I don’t see any was around it though. For many people this was completely new information…and they haven’t even been on this site!
The songs that Vanessa picked were deep and allowed people to connect with God- even if the message wasn’t in depth.
How do we attract people to the Journey and present the gospel in a way that doesn’t pressure them and but teaches we are all sinners and need God (an offensive message to a self-sufficient society!)? I think the J2 might be a great tool to connect with them and to begin to ponder who God really is.
My thinking is that the Journey organizational stuff should be like a skeleton that gives the body structure but is not very visible. Is a church an organization or a an organism? I’m thinking of where the emphasis is placed… not whether to do one or the other. I think if we push the Journey brand too much it could be a turn off and a distraction.
Perhaps people would not show up at a vision casting night because they would not be interested… I always hated those kind of meetings in the corporate world… I always thought… let’s stop talking about the mission statement for company x and just get to work and do it… let’s just make a product that will make people want to part with their money. I am not sure but I think if you asked people why they come to the Journey it is not because of a slick organization but rather because of relationships and because they like to worship together and learn about spiritual stuff. What Jesus has called us to is really pretty simple.
And I probably came off a bit strong in my original post…
Lisa is right - the worship set was among the most powerful I’ve seen at the Journey.
And, Jeff definitely has to get the message out there about our future as a church - and to excite and get people on board. I felt jazzed about that for sure!
It was a great set… most churches push their brand… it was always a turn-off to me… I was dreaming about how we might break from the pack and handle that differently.
a brand isn’t something that’s pushed. it’s just there so people recognize you. jim, did you feel introducing the new logo was pushing the brand? or are you talking about the vision casting for how we’re changing our mode of operation?
nah… none of that… I am thinking ahead… not about the past… I was just wondering what it would be like if the organizational aspects were toned down… less statements about Journey this, Journey that… make it less business like and more organic… like church community would be a place where you could find refuge from the business world and everyday marketing hype. We get so much marketing pressure from all sides I am thinking that possibly many folks don’t like getting it from their church too. When I get market pressure my instinctive reaction is “no”. If I see a product I like and if it is something I want then I will say “yes”.
…but the outside packaging can be helpful in getting our attention.
I love feeling that our church is growing and changing, just as I am, and that we are on this journey together. That it’s not a church that believes it has already “arrivedâ€Â, nor one that causes me to feel that I need to sprint in the hopes of catching up with the change.
I think it’s important for our church to grow and continue to change with the times, and to use the tools of the times to get others interested, and provide an environment that will allow all who join in to grow closer and understand their relationship with God at their own pace.
When we were wandering around churchless, I came across a podcast of a local church where some guy was trying to tell the people what God did to help him in a situation and the pastor kept interrupting the guy saying, “But (insert name of church) is great, the people of (name) helped you, (name) is a place that you got this.” It was so pushy and phony I told Jim I didn’t care if it was a growing church in our neighborhood, this is too weird. Some branding is good, but if it is overused and continuously repeated, people tune you out. I guess what I’m saying is do it, but don’t overdo it.
As part of the team that decided on the mailer and its content, I have been mulling this over and over.
From a creativity perspective, I think the mailer was fantastic. I liked its tone and its imaging. I like what it conveys about the church.
I’m not worried at all about the people who came to talkinchurch.com and complained about the slick advertising materials. All marketing has to contend with audience acceptance or rejection issues.
The question is: Does the branding/marketing deliver value?
I believe we spent around $4500 sending 18,000 mailers to the surrounding area. How many new people came as a result of the mailer? 10? 20? I doubt it was more than 20ish… Certainly, some may have decided to come after the Unconference but I doubt we will see lasting growth much greater than 20ish ppl from the mailer.
To put it in perspective, the ~$4500 is almost half the amount that was spent on the improvements to the middle school during the years first Community Impact Day (if I remember my stats correctly).
One could argue that the benefit to the community and the kingdom of Community Impact is much more significant than 18,000 people getting a cardboard mailer that the overwhelming majority threw out with the rest of their junk mail.
Some of you may have heard me say this before, but I find it very interesting that Jesus showed up in the world at a time that was low tech. If it were me, and I was God, I would wait until somewhere around 2000 to propograte my message. There’s TV, satellite radio, the internet, email, snail mail, newspapers… all kinds of media for getting the message out.
But Jesus chose a low-tech, high-touch method: build into the lives of 11 men who would be the first to carry the message. All of us are reading this web site because of those 11 guys. As I joked in another posting, Jesus didnt take out ads in the Jerusalem Times or leave tracts on urinals in Samaritan rest rooms. His sole plan was that the kingdom would grow organically and relationally.
So, I’m kind of torn because I truly think the mailer was very cool. I like the dialogue it drove on the tic.com site. Yet, I think my gut feel is that my conclusions are:
Mailers don’t feel relational to me. It feels anonymous, inauthentic and once I get past the “This is cool” reaction, I start asking, would someone think, “Well that church doesnt know anything about me. Do they want ME or just whoever to come to their church?”
Given the needs that are undoubtedly present in the community, is it money well spent?
I don’t know. I say these things carefully because I don’t want to be second guessing the church ledger transaction by transaction. Coulda/woulda/shoulda discussions aren’t usually productive. I guess what I struggle with is the means by which we want growth: do we want more bodies or do we want to build disciples? And the other question is: Do marketing efforts yield new disciples or do they just entice ppl from other churches to come to us?
I believe in God because every once in a while, I hear a voice that says, “You’re my favorite.”
Jeez, I like the marketing aspect because it keeps me connected. Not that church is the same thing, but I was a part of a non-profit for 3 years and I had about 50-100 I worked with. The organization, the structure was a big part of it, but it never stopped us from acting. We devoted time to our cause and still took time out to recruit and welcome new members. It was a marriage between plan and action. Believe me, I also dislike those corporate meetings about blah, blah, blah. I don’t know. I just truly believe that our culture is different than when Jesus taught His word.
Maybe I am wrong. I do have a Public Relations degree, and my opinion is skewed. I just think of it as having the tools and taking advantage of that.
how about both??
Jim, I want to do both. I want to “sell” the Journey and I want to promote Christ.
Your question assumes we have to do one or the other and frankly since the beginning of The Journey I’ve done both… I want to up-play the organizational aspects and have people say WOW about our church and then I want to up-play the reason we are doing this.. and our overtly stated goal of becoming fully devoted followers of Christ - and have people say WOW about Jesus’ impact on our lives.
I sure don’t think celebrating the end of an era at STHS means we are only promoting an organization… and for me personally… I just wrote 45 little notes to people I am re-invited to our celebration this Sunday… I hope they come and hear about The Journey and about Christ.
On Sunday
Yesterday (sunday) was a bit of a bummer because it was all organizational talk and no Jesus. A few people told me they were disappointed, one said “typical Journey” and another “waste of time”.
Yesterday 2nd service was packed with people but we covered just 1 Bible verse in passing. The organizational changes are totally exciting…I just hope we don’t spend next week again on this only at the expense of the Jesus message!
When else would you do it?
The casting of the vision and the mission of the Journey was a needed message in light of what our next steps are going to be. I’d bet money that if we had tried to have a “vision casting night” during the week, very few people would have showed up. Sunday morning was the best time in my opinion. Plus there were lots of “Jesus messages” throughout the experience…the singing, the video, the readings…
I sat in front of a brand new visiting person on Sunday morning. This person LOVED hearing about the vision and the mission of the Journey. He knew right away what we were about and what to expect. He plans on coming back.
new peeps input
bummer about what brian heard. i had some friends come who haven’t been in over 6 months. afterward, i asked them if they were bored stiff. they surprised me by almost knocking me over with their excitement. for them, it was a huge encouragement because the next stage of our church spoke to where they’re at personally in their faith. they even called me later in the evening to tell me how excited they were about the approach the journey’s taking in the name of Jesus.
i like Jim’s original question.. just to clarify, we do a mission/vision/values series every year intentionally to remind folks or engage newer people with what the journey’s about. First of all, it’s good leadership principle to recast vision. And secondly, it always proves valuable for people who are exploring the Journey/Jesus/God/religion/Christianity.
Sunday
I agree with Brian, that the Sunday message was mostly focused on the organizational aspects of church. I don’t see any was around it though. For many people this was completely new information…and they haven’t even been on this site!
The songs that Vanessa picked were deep and allowed people to connect with God- even if the message wasn’t in depth.
How do we attract people to the Journey and present the gospel in a way that doesn’t pressure them and but teaches we are all sinners and need God (an offensive message to a self-sufficient society!)? I think the J2 might be a great tool to connect with them and to begin to ponder who God really is.
org
My thinking is that the Journey organizational stuff should be like a skeleton that gives the body structure but is not very visible. Is a church an organization or a an organism? I’m thinking of where the emphasis is placed… not whether to do one or the other. I think if we push the Journey brand too much it could be a turn off and a distraction.
vision casting night
Perhaps people would not show up at a vision casting night because they would not be interested… I always hated those kind of meetings in the corporate world… I always thought… let’s stop talking about the mission statement for company x and just get to work and do it… let’s just make a product that will make people want to part with their money. I am not sure but I think if you asked people why they come to the Journey it is not because of a slick organization but rather because of relationships and because they like to worship together and learn about spiritual stuff. What Jesus has called us to is really pretty simple.
A little more...
And I probably came off a bit strong in my original post…
Lisa is right - the worship set was among the most powerful I’ve seen at the Journey.
And, Jeff definitely has to get the message out there about our future as a church - and to excite and get people on board. I felt jazzed about that for sure!
worship time was good
It was a great set… most churches push their brand… it was always a turn-off to me… I was dreaming about how we might break from the pack and handle that differently.
??
a brand isn’t something that’s pushed. it’s just there so people recognize you. jim, did you feel introducing the new logo was pushing the brand? or are you talking about the vision casting for how we’re changing our mode of operation?
logo is cool
nah… none of that… I am thinking ahead… not about the past… I was just wondering what it would be like if the organizational aspects were toned down… less statements about Journey this, Journey that… make it less business like and more organic… like church community would be a place where you could find refuge from the business world and everyday marketing hype. We get so much marketing pressure from all sides I am thinking that possibly many folks don’t like getting it from their church too. When I get market pressure my instinctive reaction is “no”. If I see a product I like and if it is something I want then I will say “yes”.
ahh
cool. got it. that makes sense.
It's what's in the inside that counts and keeps us…
…but the outside packaging can be helpful in getting our attention.
I love feeling that our church is growing and changing, just as I am, and that we are on this journey together. That it’s not a church that believes it has already “arrivedâ€Â, nor one that causes me to feel that I need to sprint in the hopes of catching up with the change.
I think it’s important for our church to grow and continue to change with the times, and to use the tools of the times to get others interested, and provide an environment that will allow all who join in to grow closer and understand their relationship with God at their own pace.
YBFAM,
Dean Floyd
over-pushing the brand
When we were wandering around churchless, I came across a podcast of a local church where some guy was trying to tell the people what God did to help him in a situation and the pastor kept interrupting the guy saying, “But (insert name of church) is great, the people of (name) helped you, (name) is a place that you got this.” It was so pushy and phony I told Jim I didn’t care if it was a growing church in our neighborhood, this is too weird. Some branding is good, but if it is overused and continuously repeated, people tune you out. I guess what I’m saying is do it, but don’t overdo it.
Value and Return on Investment
As part of the team that decided on the mailer and its content, I have been mulling this over and over.
From a creativity perspective, I think the mailer was fantastic. I liked its tone and its imaging. I like what it conveys about the church.
I’m not worried at all about the people who came to talkinchurch.com and complained about the slick advertising materials. All marketing has to contend with audience acceptance or rejection issues.
The question is: Does the branding/marketing deliver value?
I believe we spent around $4500 sending 18,000 mailers to the surrounding area. How many new people came as a result of the mailer? 10? 20? I doubt it was more than 20ish… Certainly, some may have decided to come after the Unconference but I doubt we will see lasting growth much greater than 20ish ppl from the mailer.
To put it in perspective, the ~$4500 is almost half the amount that was spent on the improvements to the middle school during the years first Community Impact Day (if I remember my stats correctly).
One could argue that the benefit to the community and the kingdom of Community Impact is much more significant than 18,000 people getting a cardboard mailer that the overwhelming majority threw out with the rest of their junk mail.
Some of you may have heard me say this before, but I find it very interesting that Jesus showed up in the world at a time that was low tech. If it were me, and I was God, I would wait until somewhere around 2000 to propograte my message. There’s TV, satellite radio, the internet, email, snail mail, newspapers… all kinds of media for getting the message out.
But Jesus chose a low-tech, high-touch method: build into the lives of 11 men who would be the first to carry the message. All of us are reading this web site because of those 11 guys. As I joked in another posting, Jesus didnt take out ads in the Jerusalem Times or leave tracts on urinals in Samaritan rest rooms. His sole plan was that the kingdom would grow organically and relationally.
So, I’m kind of torn because I truly think the mailer was very cool. I like the dialogue it drove on the tic.com site. Yet, I think my gut feel is that my conclusions are:
Mailers don’t feel relational to me. It feels anonymous, inauthentic and once I get past the “This is cool” reaction, I start asking, would someone think, “Well that church doesnt know anything about me. Do they want ME or just whoever to come to their church?”
Given the needs that are undoubtedly present in the community, is it money well spent?
I don’t know. I say these things carefully because I don’t want to be second guessing the church ledger transaction by transaction. Coulda/woulda/shoulda discussions aren’t usually productive. I guess what I struggle with is the means by which we want growth: do we want more bodies or do we want to build disciples? And the other question is: Do marketing efforts yield new disciples or do they just entice ppl from other churches to come to us?
I believe in God because every once in a while, I hear a voice that says, “You’re my favorite.”
Re: ROI
All living things grow organically.
I'm torn too!
Jeez, I like the marketing aspect because it keeps me connected. Not that church is the same thing, but I was a part of a non-profit for 3 years and I had about 50-100 I worked with. The organization, the structure was a big part of it, but it never stopped us from acting. We devoted time to our cause and still took time out to recruit and welcome new members. It was a marriage between plan and action. Believe me, I also dislike those corporate meetings about blah, blah, blah. I don’t know. I just truly believe that our culture is different than when Jesus taught His word.
Maybe I am wrong. I do have a Public Relations degree, and my opinion is skewed. I just think of it as having the tools and taking advantage of that.