LTGs: Boost em or Bust em?

Here are ideas to improve the LTG ministry:

- Online list of groups, contact person, meeting time/place
- Every group is open to anyone, until full at 5 people (no cliques!)
- Widely accepted format for how to conduct a meeting. Cool materials to help this happen. "LTG is as simple as 1-2-3! 1: Bible 2: Pray 3: Accountability"
- Sample ground rules for groups to adopt ("thou shalt not forget thy Bible", "thou shalt cancel only if more than 24 hours and thou is in the hospital")
- Much greater emphasis on Sundays: LTG tent, LTGs presenting together, mention in newsletter
- Jeff/others to conduct quarterly "booster sessions" to help newbies get going, reinvigorate existing ones (and not only at 6 am)
- Visible "LTG Ambassador" who keeps up with everything in LTG world. Visits diff groups.
- LTG audit - where some method is used to ensure each LTG is following Journey standards. Could have an online survey that all group members complete - they can then improve their own LTG based on their results.

you brought up the "LTGs seem pretty clique-like" a few times, but didn't Jesus have an LTG? seems to me his LTG was kinda clique-like.
"Sorry James but Judas is feeling left out and cant connect with anyone else so we're going to have to accommodate him, can you go hang out with Simon and Matthew for a while?"

Brian-
I'm glad someone hit this up.
LTG's are usually given as the solution to grow and mature in the Christian faith at the Journey. But I would have to question their effectiveness.
I personally am part of a somewhat functioning LTG, and it's work just to get the guys to meet regularly. That's not to say we haven't had some good meetings, but I would not describe it as a well of spiritual growth.
They would defiantly need to be boosted in order to be effective.
I like some of your ideas Brian!

Nigel-

For all the talk of LTGs:
- I have been at the Journey for a year. No one has invited me to an LTG.
- I used to hear about them, at least. Not anymore.
- I can't be in an LTG with my wife? That's a bummer. We grow best together.

I agree that becoming part of an LTG that works can be hit or miss.

Having an LTG connection area on the site would help people of similar mindsets/interests find each other to form an LTG.

And, we can have the LTGs provide each other content ideas, provacative discussion ideas and even provide questions/discussion items related to what people discuss on the site as well as what happens on Sunday.

So, if we thing we can help provide good support for successful LTGs throught these tools, imagine how these can help us fulfill the vision for community and conversation throughout the week, not just on Sunday.

Tanya Reynolds
http://www.tanyamreynolds.com
http://tanyareynolds.blogspot.com

Hey...love the discussion about LTG's... yup...I'm a bit frustrated with the progress too...and hear your feedback loud and clearly.....and look forward to Frances input - as she has been the LTG director for the past year. She and I have talked at length about LTG strengths and weakness.
Just for your info...Jesus had an LTG with Peter, James, and John - frequently spending time with just them and not the others. Becoming close, accountability, and trusted friends does not equal a clique.

The idea of moving to a "small group system" instead of the current LTG system does not appeal to me... but IMPROVING I would love to do....

(As one who has not done LTGs,) I have never seen spiritual growth occur outside the context of a small group. Never.

Kay asks, "What is Jeff's idea of a 'small group system'? He's not thinking 'Bible study' is he?"

(Oh, did you mean that whole small group - subzone - zone hierarchy? Forget all that, that's just organization.)

Kay adds, "LTGs have three parts -- accountability, Bible, prayer? They sound like small groups, only smaller. And small groups have five parts -- those three, plus worship and vision-casting."

maybe that's part of the prob. typically people aren't invited to ltgs at all. you have to put yourself out there, possibly meet with frances, go to a larger group meeting, and then try an ltg which might not work. i know some folks that have tried several and can't seem to click. to be in an ltg, you have to REALLY want it.

so... if jon had been invited, would he have tired it out?

the self-motivated thing is hardly working for committed believers, let alone anyone on the fence. people say they want growth, but typically aren't willing to do it themselves. frankly, it's a ton of work and i'm busy and overwhelmed as it is, right?

on the q&a site someone suggested doing a match.com type thing. at least it might be a start about how to make the getting-in process easier.

the second issue is different - how to create a culture of it. a church made up of ltgs. hmmm

since jeff invited me to weigh in, here are my thoughts. :-)

take this analogy in the best way possible. i see ltg's similar to communism. when you hear the theory, it's appealing. i'm very idealistic & love a good theory, but the problem is we don't live in theory, we live in reality. somethings just don't look the same when played out.

ltg's are supposed to be 2 people who are looking for 2 people to invite to join their group. when they reach 4 people, they split into 2 groups, each of which is looking for 2 more people to join. it's supposed to be organic, deep growth. the reality is that constant shuffling around doesn't allow for deep relational growth [sticky-ness] that we would want in the church.

even with our current system, it can be very hard to get into an ltg as they are at the journey. it's awkward if you don't know anyone and discouraging if you do know people, but aren't welcomed into a group. it feels like a blind date if you're put into a group with people you don't know. what if you don't 'click'?

further, the basic premise assumes that 1) people are highly motivated to grow spiritually and 2) people know how to grow spiritually. we can't assume either of those points for people who are just exploring faith.

i'm all for small groups. i think they are great ways to relate to people and grow spiritually. i'm just not sure that ltg's are the best way for non-christian, non-church people to do that.

thoughts?

Great comments Frances!

I'm now really down on LTG. One of our guys just bailed for tomorrow morning, yet again. When everyone does show up, no one has their Bibles with them. This is starting to become a regular problem. Yeah we're good buddies, I like hanging with them, but we don't stick to the 3 main goals and haven't for quite some time now.

If we had a men's bible study, I'd be there, and I'd get WAY more than I get now.

I think we should do some form of all church voting on this critical topic. LTG's - BUST EM.

Jeff, you are the biggest LTG fan out there I think.
Why does moving to a small group system not appeal to you? Tell us more?

LTG's = Communism.
Ha. Great analogy.

Less than 12 hours after I wrote this, I went to our LTG and we had the most powerful session ever, which would have no way happened in a small group. Funny how God works!

DougEFresh
Hey Brian! I don't think it matters that much whether you are in a small group or in an LTG. Whether it is 3 or 5 is immaterial. What matters is what happens there. If there is one person who is a strong leader and who is able to keep the group on track, that makes a world of difference. My last LTG did not have focus, and one person tended to dominate the group with talk about his work. We rarely accomplished anything spiritually because of it. I am now in a group that has focus and I feel like I am getting much more out of it. Making sure to include scripture is essential, and it can be as easy as having each person bring a printout of favorite verses or passages. That works for us!

I have always been an advocate of small groups but got out of the habit since coming to the Journey. I can't imagine going to a small group without my wife. We do so much better together.

I am in a LTG and we have made the best of both worlds. We are praying and being accountable to each other. Also we are doing a bible study out of the book of Romans using the John MacArthur study book. I have found that is what I have been looking for.

I agree with Jim about couples study groups. We need these also. Candi and I do this on our own at home. These are all things that we need to look at and discuss.

I believe that we need to add not take away. I am dissapointed that the Men's breakfast is no longer each month and Deeper seems to have disappeared without any announcement. These events helped me greatly with my spiritual growth.

the reason i would like to add other types of groups is

1) couples' groups are great but what if you wanted to just study the Bible as a couple, not how to be a better couple? what if you're single and not 18-30? i think they just leave too big a gap to ignore.

2) the journey doesn't have something consistent for women to attend and grow together, which a small group can supply. from my experience in the captivating class and other women's groups i've been in, women absolutely need time with other women to grow. men need this, too, but i would venture to say that women need it more, as highly relational creatures.

again, i love to hear about life tranformation groups that are life transforming, but i would love to see groups be more accessible for every person who walks through the journey's doors.

I have now been in 2 LTG's My first started out Great! I was the baby of the group and was inspired because the two women I joined with were 15+ years older than I. I felt I would be able to learn a lot from these women. In the beginning we were studying Romans and were totally growing spiritually. Then out LTG went from one night a week to talking every day on the phone. It started to fall apart and become more of a social visit. It took us over a year to complete Romans. I learned a lot and then got out because it was not a healthy. I then waited nearly a year to put myself out there and get into another LTG. I did and met with 3 other women who attend the journey. We chose to do a spiritual gifts book, which ended up being repetative so we only grew a little 2 were there to grow spirutually and 2 were there with the hope of making more girl friends. Sadly every week someone was canceling and LTG was not a priority for some. It became frustrating so we just split our LTG. I have now started a small group at my house and I have 5 women come every other week and we are reading captivating. This small group is deep and we signed a contract about confidentiality, attendance, and what the intentions of our group are. I have to say this group is helping me get deeper and totally grow spiritually. I truly believe that in order to get deeper it is up to you, and no one else can do it. I can't wait to get a 3rd erson for our LTG. I again have to put myslef out there to find one other person to join with. But the 3rd time's a charm right?
As for the journey I would not get rid of LTg's. I think they can work as long as their was structure. People should sign a contract, and goals should be put out there so in the end they are met. I also think small groups should be offered. I would love to do a woman's bible study. It helps me grow and get questions answered by people who are more educated about the Bible.

Linda and I frequently had singles come to our group... I don't think we have to divide people up based on marital status. At one time we had a group that was more of a divorce recovery group... and we have had no experience with divorce at all... pretty funny how God brought diff folks at diff times over the years... sometimes 1 or two others, sometimes 40.

What can we do when our LTG isn't enough for accountability and support? I would love to have people that would pray for me when times are tough.

Hey Linda,
I hear your heart and hunger for more. I can’t imagine life without my LTG - especially having them know me and pray for me on such a deep level!

We know LTGs are strongest when there is constant feeding on scripture. I have had to “chastise” some groups for only reading ‘other’ material. The Bible has to be the main source of chewing.
LTG’s are strongest when each week members are asked accountability type questions…and invited to share the real wrestling / challenges going on - samples are on the LTG page on our website.
LTGs are the strongest when there is direct prayer for each other - and continued prayer support throughout the week.
If your LTG isn’t there… then I suggest you first bring up the need to them and ask them to move into that commitment…if they can’t or are unwilling… it is probably time to leave that LTG or start a new one to have the intimate level of support. We all need that. LTGs are designed to meet that need, but not all function in a strong enough way. I assume you have already had discussions with Frances about your particular situation. If not… that is a great place to start.

The LTG model was popularized by the Promise Keepers movement, where men would commit to meet together and ask each other accountability questions. I understand PK’s intent but I think in some ways, it was a half-baked concept.

I deeply believe that one of the reasons why discipleship in America is often so lame is that people do not have safe environments for deep confession and restoration. So much of Christianity is punitive in nature: acknowledge deep failures or needs and often you get whacked. One of my best friends was summarily dismissed from seminary after his wife expressed — in confidence — to the dean’s wife that my friend was actively working on repenting from a porn addiction. This happened in his final semester! Rather than work to restore him, he got whacked. This is the typical response to someone who risks confessing deep sin.

And so people are left to struggle with their darkness on their own. Few will risk meaningful confession until they know they can really trust someone. I have three men in my life who I have known for 20 years. They know my stuff and I know theirs. But this didn’t happen quickly. It happened by spending gobs oftime together, having a few good conflicts, talking openly about God and the word and progressively revealing ourselves over time.

So, the PK/LTG model can promise more than it can immediately deliver. We get together and confess things like speeding, calling in “sick,” stealing office supplies, flipping off another driver, whatever. Superficial, meaningless confessions and accountability questions are the result when people try to force trust too quickly.

I have written here before that hearing someone’s confession, someone’s dirt, their darkness and their shame is a holy thing. Truly sacred and holy. Many people do not know how to handle that holy, priestly function. And if you’ve been burned enough times by hapless, insensitive, immature and gossipy priests, you learn to just keep it all to yourself.

The PK Model is also flawed in it’s once-a-week meeting frequency. You cannot fully trust someone sitting in Denny’s every Wednesday morning to ask each other accountability questions. You have to spend time together and know each other. Any LTG where the people only meet once a week is, IMO, pretty much doomed to superficiality.

So, my point is, have reasonable expectations for LTGs. Frances suggested a while ago to set exit dates for any small group. Try an LTG for 14 weeks and then let everyone re-up if they want.. or not. And be selective about the people you want to be in an LTG with. And then give the relationships time to form trust. And be certain that when someone finally risks meaningful confession that you handle it with a sense of the sacred because when someone confesses to you, they are letting you into a holy part of their soul.

Don’t screw it up!

I believe in God because every once in a while, I hear a voice that says, “You’re my favorite.”

I completely agree with you. I’ve been in 3 LTG’s (they all keep moving out of state—-I even shower before I see them—don’t know what the deal is) :) Anyway, it was over a year before I shared “my stuff” with my first LTG because I was so scared of being “judged” (and these were people I had known for a long time). My second LTG was just 2 of us—it was just what worked with us. Now I have an LTG who puts with me—faults and all. But it is all a process. With 2 of the LTG’s we had to have the hard discussion about continuing together or splitting…never fun…but better to approach it honestly than to stay together just to stay together.

Hopefully I don’t have to change LTG’s for a while, but if I do, the people I’m with have to earn my trust and it will take a long time.

Dave and Arlet are right, trust is something that takes time. And I’m all for being real. But…

Question:
Do LTGs (as we currently practice them) emphasize “accountability” in the sense of “here are the ways I’ve sinned this past week”? If so, then I’m really not interested. If a church service (even a Journey experience) is unappealing to my friends, then wow, being in a setting where one is expected to spill their guts, or sit and listen as someone else spills theirs, is way, way threatening.

This past week, I learned a different LTG emphasis that centers not on “how have I sinned” but “how have I participated in the life and mission of God”. I shared one of the key practices — blessing three people a week — with a couple of close friends who are atheists. They were interested!

I think you can have both. However, it depends on who is in your LTG…with all my LTG’s I have never had to confess “Here is what I did this week?” But, more so, they know my specific temptations, for lack of a better word, and I will ask them to periodically ask me how I’m doing. I directly ask them (and other accountability partners outside of my LTG) to straight out ask me “Did you …. when you were in that setting.” For me—-it isn’t so much the guilt (anymore) that keeps me from straying but my own discipline/desire to be honoring to God and to myself… and to know that I have people who care about me and don’t want be to stray and pray for me….is awesome. I need that accountability because it can be too easy for me to justify my downfalls.

However, for some people that would be completely freaky. So what you are doing with your group is great and I can see how it would be very appealing and extremely positive. I think it is so great that I’m going to steal that and use it in my LTG (especially about the blessing 3 people a week).

Arlet, thanks for clarifying.

Isn’t the “blessing” idea cool? I got it last week from Michael Frost as one of a set of 5 simple practices. If you’re going to steal it, I should give it to you properly:

Bless three people a week:

• one who is following Jesus
• one who is not following Jesus
• one “wild card” (either)

They can be people in our community, or beyond. Ideas include: an encouraging note or email, a phone call, a gift, an act of kindness, or donations to causes or charities.

Our LTG system is provides a great deal of freedom and depends primarily on the commitment of the people in the group to invest, get deep, and help one another have a Life Transformation. This organic nudge has some clear direction, examples, and structure… http://www.takethejourney.org/ltg/overview.htm

All on our website. When they work… LTGs have proven to be very effective. When participants are not committed or there happens to be one without a good ‘chemistry’ they don’t work. This is true of “traditional small group” Bible studies of 10-12 also. True is… each maturing Christ Follower is responsible to position themselves for spiritual growth, vitality. LTG are neither perfect, nor the only model for deeper level connection and discipleship.

Because if someone has to ask me, then it’s a kind of coercion. Plus, I can (and probably will) lie until I am ready to confess freely.

(Actually, I will just simply bail out of any group that asks accountability questions. I won’t ever be involved in a group like that.)

I think accountability questions completely miss the heart of discipleship. These questions reveal a philosophy of spiritual behavioralism: are you doing the things youre supposed to be doing and not doing those things youre not supposed to be doing? I think one of the primary ways God works in us is to arouse our desire for him and the kingdom. He delights in intrinsic motivation, not external pressure.

Certainly, there are times when a brother is to go to another brother who is in known sin and ask for confession but the primary motivation for confession is from within one’s self.

Confession is most meaningful when it happens because I want to tell you what’s going on in my life, and I won’t want to tell you if I don’t trust you.

If you ask me and I don’t trust you, I will either lie to you or give you a superficial answer.

There is no shortcut to this. We can talk about Bible study being the core, people basically liking each other, idea group sizes, commitment, individual responsibility, etc. etc. Bottom Line: If there is no trust, there were be no spiritual depth nor meaningful confession.

I believe in God because every once in a while, I hear a voice that says, “You’re my favorite.”

I agree… it can take years to build trust. It does for me anyway.

So…
Since I brought up this topic, I’ve noticed a resurgence of small groups coming back to the Journey. Does that mean we are departing from the LTG strategy?

Or can there simply be room for BOTH. Some do LTGs. Others do small groups. Others take advantage of both.

I like Brian’s suggestion of having both. There are some people who are really doing well with the small LTG format. Others have had bad experiences or are avoiding them completely, therefore missing out on one of the few ways in our church to grow spiritually in community. Personally, I don’t like the idea of limiting myself to one or two people. It is really hard to match me with one or two people that I feel can understand where I am in life. At least in a bit larger group, I can get to know some more people better and can then have someone different I can talk to about each of the areas of life that I am processing. And also, I can be pleasantly surprised by the insight of people that I would not suspect. After all, God speaks through people of all ages and lifestyles.

many of us have marked a card, waited for a response, asked other people etc etc etc… why not just have a sheet out at the connect table… put down the names of those who check the box that they are looking for a group, sign in yourself if you are looking, add phone/email info and days available. no more wandering around asking “are you in a LTG”. Frances could still try to help others connect, but we would have an option to get it going, a little less painfully.

the same could be done for small groups.

I think the idea of both groups is great. I would love to find another LTG that fits me but until then bring on the small groups. Small groups would also be a great way to scope out future LTG’s candidates.

Trust is a key issue. To truely be held accountable you have to be honest. That honesty will be diffucult if you can’t trust the the others in the group to keep the conversations within the group. To me faith is something that is deep, personal, and emotional. I can’t just walk up to a stranger and begin expressing my faith with them. I have been at the Journey for nearly five years and I can’t say that I really know anyone outside the Sunday experience. So to just walk up to someone and ask to start an LTG is difficult.
Another possible conern is the gap in bible knowlege among people at the Journey. You may click with someone, but be afraid to form an LTG because they may know a lot more about the bible than you, or even nothing at all. While that may sound like a good mix, for some there is the intimidation factor or a feeling that your are not experiencing the bible for yourself and rather are being lead down the path of someone elses beliefs and interpretations. On the flipside, to constantly feel like the teacher or the leader may become tiring for some. How do we bridge that gap?
I think the Journey needs to somehow tie the LTG into the groups. As people begin to interact with other and feel comfortable, the thought of starting an LTG will sound more acceptable.
During the un-conference a few of us got together to talk about forming a motorcycle group. Part of what we thought could be done is to tie in some fellowship along with those rides. Who knows, we may form some LTGs out of it.

For some people the thought of trying to find or start an LTG might bring up feelings and reminders of certain uncomfortable social situations. Like high school dances, getting picked last for a team sport (or not getting picked at all), worrying about how to fit in with a particular crowd, ending up on an important work project with people who don’t share your goals, wondering how to get out of a commitment without hurting anyone’s feelings…… you know, uncomfortable situations with unclear outcomes. I’m probably talking about introverts, or even shy extroverts, for the most part, but it might be more natural for some people to check out a bigger small group on their own terms, with the flexibility to join in or just sit and watch for a while, or sneak out the back door, with less of a chance of feelings getting hurt or having to disappoint someone if it doesn’t work out.

I have been in 2 LTGs. The first one was good, but everyone moved away, had kids, got busy. I was out for a couple years, but definitely felt the need for the connection and accountability an LTG can provide during that time.

I have been in my second one for several months now. Prayer is a bigger part of our meetings and we make better progress in our study and reading. It takes time to really open up to each other on deep personal issues, and we have a ways to go. I believe if you get with the right people an LTG can be key to spiritual and personal growth.

An LTG self-checkup with guidelines initiated by the Journey corporate office would be helpful.

Regarding small groups:

There are four couples groups I know of studying a variety of topics. There are also many other groups one can get involved with where you can meet other people and possibly develop contacts to start an LTG. Regarding an LTG involving one’s spouse… a person needs people outside their immediate family as ‘trusted advisors’ for personal issues and accountability. Fresh perspectives may be exactly what you need which can be difficult to get from someone you are with most of the time.

BTW - other than not meeting over the summer, there has been a men’s breakfast / Bible study every month for quite a while. I have found the topics interesting and worth getting up early on a Saturday for. Strange how the above posts make it sound like there isn’t a men’s bible study.

Should the Journey be responsible for formally organizing a plethora of small groups….or should the people interested take the initiative to get a group going by simply inviting some people to meet regularly? I say the latter…. just go for it! But a small group is not a replacement for a good LTG in my opinion.

The law of 2 feet applies. If it is not working, move on…. but at least try to get connected with others seeking God and studying the Word beyond Sunday morning.

My take is that I’ve wanted to join an LTG but the one opportunity where I was invited to one, when I returned from a long vacation I was not welcomed into since the group had grown tight-knit and didn’t want new members. I understand this because I’ve been in groups with that dynamic, however, it is also frustrating because I don’t know of any other groups that meet close by (Sunnyvale). It would be very nice if there were a catalog of LTG’s to choose from.

Amen - I mean Yeah!

It does seem to come up where you have to be in a few LTGs before you find that “magic connection” and also, as you serve and get to know others at the Journey - it is great to make that step out and ask that person you see each week and chat with - “want to try an LTG?”. One thing I found most valuable and might help is to have frequent “First Try” events where people can learn more about the function of LTGs and where they can meet other people looking to get into one. I did this and was in an LTG for over a year.
Frances, can we do another “First Try” LTG again for those who are interested in getting into an LTG? I believe this could be a great option for those new to the Journey and the LTG.
Shauna S.