Thoughts on Sunday "remember"
so while i should be working on my 18 page fiction story due in 3 hours… i decided this was obviously the best time to bring up some things i thought about on sunday (and wrote down so i wouldn’t forget)
*what about the Coptic church? This church was founded shortly after the ascension of jesus, during the reign of nero. christians here have a different view of christ and the “bible” than christian say from europe (which is where is where most “white” churches get their traditions from) i realize that since this church is in africa, and very very few people know anything about african history… it might not be the first thing that comes up when you think of the early church. but i think their views should be considered. there is substantial evidence suggesting the jews came from ethiopia and only traveled to the Middle East after they left their occupation of Egypt (the slavery claim is under debate by scholars).
*what about islam? islam spread faster and more rapidly than christianity- should be look at why islam spread? because the majority of the spread of islam was through traders (and other peaceful means). why did islam “do better” at winning converts in the middle east/africa?
*after all the talk about persecution i made a pretty bold connection. the early church was very similar to the gay community now. both were a minority of the population that were discriminated, hated and persecuted for something they held very dear (and didn’t feel they could deny). the dominate group (romans and now christians) isolate and prevent the minority group from meeting or being treated like the remainder of the population. is this heresy to some of you? the gay community is very much like the early church- or any minority group. it is a group of people that care about each other and try to help each other because they are persecuted by the dominate group. in our society gay persons are persecuted- they can not marry their boyfriends, or girlfriends, just a straight couples could. im not trying to restart the gay debate- i just thought it was an interesting comparasion
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coptic church
I have a good friend from Egypt who was from a Coptic Church. He likes the Vineyard Church better now.
i am happy for your friend-
i am happy for your friend- but this one person can not make a blanket statement about an entire religion. i used to go to an evangelical church, and i sometimes come to the journey. sometimes i like it better to just stay home. does that make the journey wrong?
-rebeccajean
history stuff
Interesting point. I know in my anthroplogy class I heard of the supposed egypt occuption of the Jews. However, from what i’ve learned about Egyptian History, is that they were known for completely erasing people from their history. I’m surprised no one talks about this because it was mentioned on a discovery special i saw years ago. So it is possible that the egyptians simply wiped the jews from their records considering how embarrasing that was for them to go through what they did. Also I just wanted to talk about the spread of Islam. I’m not sure if what I learned from that class i mentioned is true, but through some brief research it seems to be true. We learned that Islam in it’s very beginning was not spread peacefully. Muhammad was a military leader and conquered cities. He was also known for beheading people as well. I’m not sure as to the correct reasons why he did this (although I know surrounding nations converted to Islam out of fear due to the dominance of Muhammad’s army). Anyway just some historical stuff I dug out. maybe we can dialogue about accuracy of what i’ve learned versus you, because these are interesting points to bring up.
africa & islam
i have studies a lot of African history and have never heard of Egyptians “wiping out” a whole people group. what i have learned is that they were equal opportunity enslavers, they didn’t really care of your race. (and chattel slavery which is what we think of commonly as slavery wasn’t invented until the Americas were discovered) i agree that its not universally accepted- but there are many Ethiopian Jews- and some evidence that suggests that the Jews came from Ethiopia occupied Egypt during the time of the “black pharaohs”
i thinks its all a debate, and the problem with African history is so much of it has been erased or changed by the white colonizers.
as far as Islam, it was spread mostly peaceably in Africa- elsewhere i agree there were religious wars (but then again the Christians had plenty of those too)
-rebeccajean
peaceful Islam
Islam spreads by the sword. With Islam, it is convert or die… or be a slave.
Ayaan Hirsi is an African and a former muslim (and former member of the Dutch Parliment btw)…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg8AYs56RAY
Ayaan says that 2/3 of the violent acts in the world today can be attributed to muslims and they make up about 1/5 of the population of the world.
Great book: “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi
and christianity never was violent?
look at our president a “christian” invading countries and occupying them without any cause- look at our nation which has many “Christian” leaders. we are by far the most aggressive nation in the world. Christians today can be pretty darn aggressive too.
I’m not denying that there is violence attributed to Islam- there is and in our time, there is alot of violence attributed to radical Muslims. however, i was referring to the historical spread of Islam in Africa alone. I haven’t done enough unbiased research to discuss anything else- I have done extensive research in Africa history and understand that Islam was mostly spread peacefully in Africa through traders. Members of Islam- scholars came up with some of the most basic things we use today- like the zero and Arabic counting. Northern Africa benefited from the spread of Arabic- which created a unified language throughout a vast area.
i just don’t think you can make a blanket statement, “Islam spread by the sword. With Islam, it is convert or die… or be a slave.” There were many times in Christian history that Christianity was spread by the sword- from when it was declared the official religion in 313 CE throughout the middle ages (wars in Spain, persecuting of Jews that wouldn’t convert etc etc). My point is from 313 CE to the Crusades and beyond Christianity has been spread by the sword as well. And as I mentioned above Islam historically was not spread by force in Africa.
-rebeccajean
PS 2/3 of the violent acts in the world? I can’t believe that. Maybe if you think that the radicals like Osama bin Laden (totally off topic but here is another guy the US supported then double-crossed and now is trying to kill) are Muslims- I would call them radicals, not Muslims. What about all the violent acts against racially profiled foreigners in Guantanamo Bay Cuba- what about the torture to people there? That is under the order of a whole lot of “Christians”
A little balancing
So the US is invading and occupying countries without “any” cause? We are certainly horribly informed about world affairs by our news agencies, but certainly there is a cause. Does the cause justify the actions would be the question, not that there is no cause. I am certainly no Bush fan and doubt the sincerity of anything he says. I would also not consider the US as the most aggressive nation in the world today….most assertive probably.
Also, if you dismiss actions of radical Muslims saying they are not representative of the religion, then you should dismiss the actions of radical “Christians” the same way as not being representative of the religion.
Islam
Hi Rebecca,
One really cool book to look into is ‘While Europe Slept’. I got it at the library, so can you. It is written by Bruce Bawer, an American homosexual who has spent a lot of time in Europe and has seen Islam in action over there and how the Muslims treat homosexuals and others who are not Islamic. He is definitely not a part of the religious right and wrote a book against it once. Though I don’t agree with everything this guy says, he is very educated, a good writer, and is willing to really look at things. Personally, I don’t think Islam is good for society when they whip women who are raped, or jail and threaten death to a misinformed woman who lets her classroom name a teddy bear Mohammed, and numerous other atrocities (including the death penalty for being homosexual). Though Muslims say they are for peace, we need to look at what is done in the name of Islam, not at just the words. There are peaceful Muslims, especially in this country, but the pictures of Muslims dancing in the streets on 911 is sickening.
cpt kirk-
perhaps its my view on war, but i think there was no reason whatsoever that the US should invade and occupy a country that we gave biological weapons to just a few decades ago. if i was president, those troops would be home ASAP, where they are safe and we can honor there commitment to the country by saving their lives.
as far as the radical muslim/christian thing- that is my point. if you are a christian, i gather that you disregard the “crazies”, those that were down at christmas in the park protesting, those that stand outside funerals, churches, concert etc with signs that say, “you are going to hell”, “god hates fags” etc etc. you recognize that this is not representative of the entire religion. that was my point with islam. yes there are radicals. yes i disgree with their methods, their violence against others, their hatred of homosexuals, and their brutal punishments. however, i seperate these radicals from the muslims i know that are very kind, and peaceful and cried like many other americans on 9/11.
with every religion, as with everything- its a spectrum. they will be the pacifists and the radicals. you can’t try to lump them all together. ghandi was muslim (as well as hindu, christian and buddhist)
-rebeccajean
view
I’m sure your view on the war is shared by many. I would think the many thousands of people massacred and their families wanted someone to come in and help in their oppressed situation…. although the execution of the whole thing has not been the way anyone wanted. Many people are miserable now with the US there…. and I believe they would be worse if we left. I would truly love it if the troops could realistically come home today.
Christian radicals to me include the inquisition, crusades, etc. When religion gets tied up with government, it tends to get corrupted and manipulated. I wonder how different this country would be if it was predominantly / historically Muslim? I am guessing the Christian crazies would seem tame in comparison.
crazies
yeah but at least christian crazies don’t blow things up or kill people. You can just ignore Christian crazies. It is best just to not call attention to them… just let them do their thing so they don’t get a martyr complex. Islam is advancing… Europe is going down fast. I don’t want our country to become like Europe. Ayaan Hirsi has to have 24hr guards and move around in an armored car because of the religion of peace. Look out for teddy bears named M.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXGZBs65qMs
The teddy bear that rocked the world…
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071130/D8T88JT...
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/articl...
the term "crazies" and tolerance
i should not have used to term “crazies” because of the negative image it evokes. every religion has its downfalls. its not my place to say bad things about any of them fundamentally, because im sure they believe in their religion just as strongly as i do in my belief system.
i think tolerance is the key here. as long as any human is not harming other humans- i think they are free to do as they wish, they can worship Ra, Allah, Ghandi, Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. However once they step that line of harming other people (physically or persecution etc) i think they should be stopped. any person no matter what they believe should have the right to harm others. so for my peaceful Muslim friends- let them be. it is those that hurt others (something that can be a product of any religion or belief system), those should be stopped.
-rebeccajean
PS i cant ignore christian crazies, maybe they leave you alone, but i seem to have a big bullseye on my head that says preach at me, yell at me, i must be going to hell
But to be fair...
…while there wouldn’t be calls for execution, if a Muslim teacher allowed her class to name a teddy bear Jesus (especially in the bible-belt), I expect there’d be quite a little stir.
What aspects of Europe do you not want see America become like?
Jesus teddy
You can buy Jesus dolls at Amazon. Who really cares? Christians for the most part believe in freedom, debate, and discussion… muslims believe in sharp short swords and explosives. Muslims and sharia law are rapidly taking over Europe (film director Theo Van Gough was one victim)… I refer to the books I mentioned earlier. BTW I have been to some big prayer rallies at stadiums in the bay area in the last few years only to come out and walk through the same crazy misguided people protesting our prayer gathering telling me I was going to hell… I am baffled… I just smile and walk by… father forgive them they don’t know what they are doing.
“Deluxe Miracle Jesus - Action Figure Has Glow in the Dark hands - Comes with 5 Loaves of Bread, 2 Fish, 1 Water into Wine Jug”
http://www.amazon.com/Deluxe-Miracle-Jesus-Action-Figure/dp/B000C9XB8W/ref=pdbbs5?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1196661642&sr=8-5
Another headline from today illustrating the religion of peace and the decline of Europe…
France stunned by rioters’ savagery
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/euro...
Sorry...
“Christians for the most part believe in freedom, debate, and discussion… muslims believe in sharp short swords and explosives.”
Sorry, Jim. But you lose all credibility with comments like this.
The most peaceful and selfless man I’ve ever met (and the most humble) is Muslim. I have yet to know a Christian who more reminds me of Jesus than this man.
While there may well be currently more Muslim radicals openly preaching violence in the world…
- That is certainly not a reflection of all Muslims or Islam
- Islam certainly is not ‘convert or die’
- Christianity has its fair share of bloody history (of which the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition are only the most well-known examples)
- Christian crazies don’t blow things up or kill people? Aside from abortion clinics I assume you mean?
Perhaps part of the reason that there are more radical Muslims today is because America provides a convenient enemy to rally against. Did we approach Iraq with ‘freedom, debate or discussion’ or ‘short swords and explosives’?
How do you expect Christian America would react if hundreds of thousands of Christian Americans had been killed in a war instigated on false pretenses by a Muslim country?
Europe in freefall
We could be in the same situation in 10 years if we stick our heads in the sand.
Al Quaeda in Bagdad is defeated… Iraq has had a regime change, no more mass graves are being dug, Al Quaeda is defeated in Bagdad, people are returning to their homes, our troops are slowly returning home as our deployments are downsizing. If muslims want peace… good… let’s all live together in peace. Unfortunately the Koran does not teach peace with unbelievers. Many muslim folks come here to live in peace… I have known some… I appreciate that… I will be the first to have them as my friends… then there are some sleeper cells too… I trust our guys will take care of them… as they have.
which iraq are you talking about?
let be preface what im going to say by three things:
*saddam was not a good ruler- he harmed others, restricted citizens rights etc etc
*saddam killed people (148 to be exact)
*i was deeply saddened when the US killed him
Here is what I know of Iraq:
-Al Quaeda had NO connection to Iraq.
-9/11 had no connection to Iraq, although President Bush and several news channels would lead you to believe otherwise.
-we just led a “surge” in iraq, where are you getting this downsizing?
-no more mass graves? 100x as many Iraqis have died because of our invasion and occupation
-why did we go there? (i mean besides oil)
i personally think Iraq was one of many many bad foreign policy decisions made by the US, time will tell how Bush is compared to Reagan, Kennedy and others that choose to invade sovereign countries.
oh and the comment about “sleeper cells” and “our guys will take care of them”…are you sounding pleased that US soldiers (which im assuming is who you are referring to) racially profile Islamic persons, as well as often kill, torture etc humans that have done nothing wrong but be Muslim.
-rebeccajean
oh and why is europe in a freefall? cause i spent the summer in spain. i lived there. and its amazing, i loved it sooo much better than the US. and that i will attribute to the 7 centuries of the Moors living in Spain.