Does gay marriage really affect christianity?

This doesn’t seem to be the question people are jumping forward to answer. I can’t answer it either.

I grew being told how I should view homosexuality just as many people in America have been told…either by their parents or churches or politics or television. As I have grown up and have become more knowledgeable about homosexuality and have friendships with homosexuals, my views have continued to be molded…I continue to process and grow.

That is not an answer, but I wanted to acknowledge your question and tell you I wish I had an answer for you.

Heh. I just got done with a big religious conversation with my mom and this was one of the topics.

It’s hard for me to understand a lot of the arguments on this. It is (in some people’s minds) a union that is not blessed or supported by God, willfully done in defiance of God’s plan. But by that definition, a marriage between a staunch atheist or wiccan couple could be just as harmful.

Few people would argue for the expanded marriage restrictions above because, a) they’re harder to spot at a distance, and b) a lot of people just don’t like gay people and don’t want to do anything that supports them.

Personally, I really wish the legal and religious aspects of marriage were split. The government has no business evaluating a marriage on theological grounds. We don’t take issue with marrying people regardless of what faith (or lack thereof) they profess. Let the government handle the marriage license, and the legal benefits/responsibilities of marriage (or civil unions), and let the churches apply whatever congregational or denominational rules they wish for their members.

Many cultures have agreed for thousands of years about what defines marriage. Why are we so confused?

Many other cultures in history have agreed on harems and the prohibition of marriage between different races, or social classes and other differences between the modern European-derived institution we have in America today. The fact that many cultures agree on something has no bearing whatsoever on whether it’s right.

Back to the original question, I see no reason for gay marriage to have any more bearing on Christianity than atheist marriage.

The institution of marriage is unraveling in our day. Cultures through the ages have agreed that marriage was between a man and a woman… I believe that is how God created us and that is how it works best. I see the confusion over what constitutes marriage as a serious end of civilisation as we know it scenario… even taking faith out of the picture and using simple biology and psycology. Marriage and family is and has always been the foundation for human civilisation. Also, homosexual folks generally get much more tolerance from most christians than from say… muslims.

The questions / comments / feelings / debate about a Christian response to people who are homosexual is “Intense” and “Important”
I hope we continue to have open discussions about the topic and continued friendships with people who are homosexuals. I agree with Jim that the institution of marriage is unraveling…and my guess is that the frequency of divorce amoung hetero-sexuals is a much bigger cause than the prospect of homosexual marriage. Frankly.. both topics need to be discussed more and both groups of people need to be loved more.
I’m not sure where I stand about gay marriage… but I will continue to offer love, support, and friendship to my gay friends as we continue this discussion.

In other cultures there has generally not been any question that a marriage is between a man and a woman rather than a man and man, a woman and a woman, or a woman and her poodle, or a man and his crocodile. Different cultures have different ideas about how many women are permissable for a man to marry but that is the extent of it usually. We have really lost our moorings.

So, because cultures have generally agreed on something, that makes it right? Slavery was common and accepted for far longer in world history than not.

I would argue we’ve moved beyond slavery as we’ve become more enlightened as a people. One might argue that perhaps the same thing needs to happen here.

I fail to see any concrete harm done by letting two gay people enjoy the same legal benefits as my wife and I, especially as those same legal benefits were granted to us for reasons that apply equally to a straight or gay ‘marriage’ (cohabitation, merging of property, other assets & debts, etc).

The resistance to it is often framed to how it will ‘damage marriage’, which sounds like code for ‘allow marriages I find personally distasteful’. The same argument was used against interracial marriage.

Jesus embodied qualities like humility, respect, patience, forgiveness and tolerance. Jesus let the man who wouldn’t give his riches to the poor walk away - he didn’t suggest passing a law to punish him. Somehow, I have a hard time picturing Jesus lobbying for a constitutional amendment of gay marriage.

The New Testament doesn’t give me a firm grasp on Jesus’ view of Homosexuality. But even if I were to assume for a moment that he’d be against it, I’d expect him to say something along the lines of “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God the what is God’s”. Which is to say I think he’d suggest focusing on the bigger issues (personal relationships with God) and not so much on the mechanics of man’s law.

The church doesn’t have to perform (or even recognize) a marriage between wiccans, Muslims, atheists or any other people they don’t want to including gays. That we focus on this issue in the realm of government, and not the church, underlines how emotional an issue this is, and how the separation between church and state is still being played out.

Macgyver has made some very good and thoughtful points, and I appreciate that. But what it really boils down to in my mind is this. God created everything for a reason. Like in the song “The Riddle” by Five For Fighting, “Here’s a riddle for you, find the answer. There’s a reason for the world, you and I”. Why would God create me? He can create absolutely anything he wants, right? Wrong. God cannot create a person (ie: me) who makes a free choice to love Him. And when I choose to love Him, He can have a loving relationship with me. That’s something He CANNOT create. Five For Fighting nailed it in their song, “the reason for the world is ‘Who am I?’” And that’s it. Simple. When I die and my soul lives on, will the ‘Who’ that I have become be compatible with God and be able to live in His Kingdom with Him? I think people who have chosen to willfully reject God’s guidelines in this lifetime will end up excluded from God’s presence in the ‘hereafter’. I like what Macgyver said… “Jesus let the man who wouldn’t give his riches to the poor walk away”. God will let you make any choice you wish. You can just walk away. It doesn’t matter if you’re a wiccan married couple, an unmarried heterosexual couple living together, a murderer, adulterer, or just indifferent to God. If you repeatedly and willingly make choices that God does not like, you’re developing a human experience… a ‘Who’, that God cannot have polluting His Kingdom. So, now who’s to decide what God likes and does not like. Is it popular opinion amongst people in a particular culture? Do we have any authority to decide what’s right or wrong? Are we smart enough to say we ‘get the big picture’, and can we say that this lifestyle that God has spoken against in the Bible, is really not harmful? Did Adam and Eve really ‘get the big picture’ when they decided it was Ok to eat from the tree God commanded them not to? After all, what can it hurt… it’s just an apple? Ever since that first choice to reject God, human kind has been suffering consequences, and most of the time we cannot connect the consequences with the bad decision.
As a Christian, I have a responsibility to defend my faith and my faith-family. I believe that if people want to live together in a same-sex or even heterosexual relationship outside of marriage, that’s their choice. But DO NOT bless that choice in the name of Christianity. Feel free to bless it in the name of the State, or anything else, but not in Christ’s name. The Bible is pretty clear about sexual relationships outside of marriage, and that the ideal family model He intended was a husband (man) and wife (woman) in a committed relationship with Him first, then each other. Don’t bring all the examples of failed marriages as an argument against this, and examples of committed/loving same-sex relationships as an argument for gay marriage. The bottom line is that we are drowning in the consequences of our culture and can only look at the Bible if we want to know what God likes and dislikes. Maybe in today’s messed-up world, God is so frustrated with failed heterosexual marriages, He’s wiling to accept committed/loving relationships that put Him first irregardless of sex. Who knows. Remember, He was willing to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if ONLY ONE person could be found that loved Him. He also gave up on the Israelites and include the Gentiles. Maybe as we continue down this spiral away from God, He will find Himself having to lower the bar to where He must accept anyone who does not murder and molest children… Or… maybe He has never lowered the bar. Maybe He’s just letting us walk away.

Ok, I have to ask. What does bi-sexual mean? Doesn’t it mean sex with either? Isn’t ‘Either’ a plural? How can anyone having sex with more than one person even remotely claim to be following Christ? I just don’t get that one.

If you’re playing around having sex with more than one person, and/or having sex with someone you have not made a lifelong commitment to, that is just plain hedonism. That is just plain satisfaction of a need for pleasure from another person. There’s room in Lesbian/Gay/Transvestite for the committed relationship first, then sex, if you MUST be that liberal…. but there’s no room at all for Bi-sexual. No.

Yikes! I regret making this posting. Many thanks to Rebecca Jean for helping me understand this issue better.

Not to excuse myself.. but just to explain that in my mind I was thinking of sexually active people in these lifestyles. While some relationships have a foundation in commitment and monogamy, I could not see how a person actively involved in on-going bisexual relationships, ie: promiscuity, could claim to have turned away from sin and are following Jesus.

Bi-sexual means that someone is sexually attracted to both men and women. That does not mean that that said person is in a relationship with a man and/or a woman. A bisexual woman is attracted to both men and women in varying degrees. She may be dating a man and in committed relationship- then doesn’t mean that she doesn’t find women attractive, but just like a married man she will choose to remain faithful.

Side note, how many people have only had sex with one person? Even “committed” married couples, marry again and have sex with their next spouse after divorce or death. Are you claiming that anyone that has sex with more than one person is a hedonist?

Jim, I would strongly suggest you try to remain careful when discussing on these forums. Making assumptions and saying that there is no “room” for bisexual people or that bisexuals are hedonists- that is personally offensive. Please question and debate in a manner which is not offensive towards others.

-rebecca jean

I respect JimVoge’s position, even though I may not fully agree with it.

But the fundamental part of this debate is a legal one. Certain Episcopal churches allow homosexuals to be pastors, and seem supportive of gay marriage. Most Christian churches/denominations don’t agree with their position.

Personally, it seems far better to allow gay marriage (or civil unions - whatever you want to call the ‘legal’ side of marriage) from a legal perspective (which isn’t really blessing the union at all - simply recognizing it legally) and let the churches choose whether or not to bless/recognize it from a spiritual/theological standpoint.

1 Cor. 5:9-13 and 6:9-11.

Was Paul a Christ follower or a judgemental, intollerant, party-pooper?
People are dying in their sin, every day…do you care enough to say NO!?

Just for the record:
God did not ‘Give up’ on the Jewish people.

Paul writes in Romans 11:13:

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse MY OWN PEOPLE (emphasis mine) to envy and SAVE SOME OF THEM (emphasis mine).

So, based on 1 Cor. 5:9-13, should I assume you’re not opposed to gay marriage in general (outside the church)? Because Paul seems to go out of his way to say he has no responsibility to judge outsiders, only those inside the church, and that it is up to God to judge the rest.

But as to the Romans verse, do you think banning gay marriage is SAVING anyone? It doesn’t change how many gay people there are, but it sure drives a lot of people away from the church and Christianity.

its because they try to force their morals on other people, especially in this issue!

lets pretend for a second that this country was not full of so many christians, and had been christian- sympathetic in the past. [i would never call america a christian nation because many of the founding fathers were deists which is much closer to modern agnosticism than theism] lets assume that america was full of a different religion, (gasp i know)- scientology. now, would you feel upset? how about if scientologist from tom cruise to john travolta started speaking out against issue X. Lets say issue X was immoral to scientologists but not to christians (like a blood transfusion or something). would christians feel hurt? would they start yelping off their soapboxes that this is unfair that they are being persecuted against and that they need their rights?

its the same exact thing. im sure someone will be like, “no it not cause christianity is 100% right and my bible says its wrong and scientology is wrong so it would be right for me to protest just like it is to protest now against gay rights.

here is my point: most people, hold their beliefs very strongly. if they say that they believe in something- they hold it as true and as concrete as christians hold that their religion is true. whether these beliefs be islam, tolerance, universalism, hinduism, deism, sceintogoly or christianity- they all think that they are right.

and with so many people thinking that they are right, all im asking for is for religion to stay out of the government. we are not a christian country. we are a country made up of a thousand religions and i wouldn’t like it any other way. try to look outside yourself and think how enforcing your religion through the government might hurt others with different beliefs. just as if they passed laws that interfered with your livelihood.

im not saying you can’t think you are right. that is your prerogative. all i want is christians to respect my beliefs and realize that by passing laws to restrict things i feel are ok- that are infringing on my beliefs. I believe in a common principle, and as strongly as i hold my own views- i also choose to repesct whatever anyone else does as long as they are not hurting others. and two consenting women in a relationship is not harming anyone.

the perspective of christianity is changing- more and more people are distancing themselves from the religion that they call “anti-homosexual”. check the link i post above for the barna survey numbers

-rebecca jean

My brother is gay and has donated his sperm to a lesbian couple. The child, now 6 yrs old, introduces my brother as his donor to his friends. I love my brother and I’m sure his friends are nice, loving people or he wouldn’t have wanted to participate. Do I condone this way of procreation? Do I think it honors God? No. Do I think this union will bring about many more followers of Christ? No. My brother professed to being a Christian at one time and was actually instrumental in my choosing to follow Christ. I often wish he had been attending a ‘Truth with Love’ fellowship of believers. The church he was going to was heavy on the ‘truth’ part and he walked away from God.
Truth without love is not right…love without truth is not right. I am grateful we have a Rock to stand on, a firm foundation. These are not my standards or ideals, they are God’s. HOW we uphold them is the important part. Jesus didn’t condemn the woman caught in adultery but he did say “sin no more”. She KNEW he had saved her life that day. He has saved my life, too, and I want to live out my days in a way that is pleasing to Him. If that means being honest with my brother and saying I love you but not what you do, then that is what I’ll do. I will listen when things are brought to my attention that I’m doing wrong,
by people who care about me, and I will also ask the Lord to reveal anything that is not right in me.
The question is about gay marriage…or is it?

The covenant of marriage is like a membership to a very exclusive club. That membership carries with it certain rights and responsibilities. If you open it up so the terms of membership are more flexible than when you signed up (or violate the terms of the agreement in other ways) you devalue the meaning of the membership.

But who owns the membership rules? Christians?

God

christianity didnt invent marriage- so what right do we have to define it?

and to answer cathy, how do you know that what you are claiming about god is right? i am not god, so i dont know where he stands on this- so i choose not to condemn without proof. i know you are obviously not god, so how can you know exactly what he wants? how do you know that your interpretation of the scriptures is correct? because both sides of this debate have interpreted the same scriptures to condemn homosexuality and say that it is ok.

i have to ask again, why does gay marriage (a legal institution by the government) have to do with the religion of christianity? you can argue all you want that it is wrong and thats fine, you can have your opinion, but why does that translate into legal restrictions on gay persons, denying them the right to marry their partners just as straight people do?

we dont live in a theocracy or an oligarchy

-rebecca jean

But it might be more “fun” if we just make up the rules of membership ourselves.

Journey is now under the Christian Reformed Church. As such, why don’t we look at our own CRC doctrine?

” Homosexuality is a condition of disordered sexuality that reflects the brokenness of our sinful world. Persons of same-sex attraction should not be denied community acceptance solely because of their sexual orientation and should be wholeheartedly received by the church and given loving support and encouragement. Christian homosexuals, like all Christians, are called to discipleship, to holy obedience, and to the use of their gifts in the cause of the kingdom. Opportunities to serve within the offices and the life of the congregation should be afforded to them as they are to heterosexual Christians.

Homosexualism (i.e., explicit homosexual practice), however, must be condemned as incompatible with obedience to the will of God as revealed in Scripture. The church affirms that it must exercise the same compassion for homosexuals in their sins as it exercises for all other sinners. The church should do everything in its power to help persons with homosexual orientation and give them support toward healing and wholeness. “

The Journey is under the RCA (Reformed Church of America)

I apologize to everyone.. Arlet is right. The position of RCA has changed dramatically in the past decade. Their website is here www.rca.org, There is a lot said about this under the topic ‘About Us’ and then go to ‘Positions’

I’ll refrain from sumarizing what they say on that website. If you’re interested, you can check it out.

I just want to say that it is a very dangerous thing when contemporary opinion overrules and reforms Biblical opinion. Seems to me like decomposing granite.

People seem to be talking past each other here.

It’s clear that the traditional Christian view (held by many Christians and most Christian denominations) is that homosexuality is not part of God’s plan, and is something that should be spoken out against as such.

1. Most people here seem to agree it is well within the church’s right to hold a such a position and to enforce it within the church. I don’t really see anyone arguing this point.

2. Others are focusing on the legal/governmental question as to the legality of gay marriage (which covers people outside the church as well as inside) and making the case that the church’s rules have no business being applied to society at large. There appear to be some statements that may disagree with this position.

Some people seem to respond to point 2 with a comment on point 1. Personally, I’m curious to know how many people feel that a legal ban on gay marriage (beyond the church) is justifiable from a Christian perspective, and on what biblical grounds.

We could just open it up for a special time. We could maybe call it “open enrollment” where you swap partners all you want with whoever you want and then lock in to whatever configuration suits the pairs, trios, groups, tribes, or whatever. This would make membership more “fair”. It could be extended to animals for the animal lovers or maybe cars for car lovers. Some might prefer a loving relationship with their car.

Hmmmm. Somehow, I’m not exactly getting how that related to the question at hand.

If we are, then let’s just make up our own rules. Let’s just “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die”. Christians don’t make rules (or at least they shouldn’t)… they (try to) follow them… same for Jewish folks.

I don’t claim any authority and I am not a part of the Journey leadership so the ideas represented here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the party hosting this forum nor their associates or other legal entities. In case any did not get it I was illustrating absurdity with an absurdity… although in today’s Bay Area world such things don’t seem that absurd. It is important to consider where societal mores come from.

I just read the whole post from start to finish. This is kind of sad to me because I see both sides. I have gay friends and I have fun with them and love them the same as all of my friends. I have Christian friends who I have fun with and love them the same as all my friends. I don’t classify anyone as gay or not. I don’t classify anyone as Christian or not. I am just a happy go lucky kind of guy who tries to love everyone the same. Now rub me the wrong way and I’ll write you off. This is my own problem I have to deal with. The point being is that we should love eachother, accept eachother as Jesus had done when he was alive.

So now then down to the question at hand.” Does gay marriage affect Christianity? I feel That it does not. So my answer is “NO”. Christianity is my faith! Nothing can affect it!

Blessings to all of you,

Frank

For the most part, all of those faiths mentioned above agree that marriage is between a man and a woman. Regarding government, I believe that all government is based on someone’s system of right and wrong which usually has it’s ultimate origin in faith so there really is not that much difference between church and civil government in a spiritual and moral sense. Church and government do have different roles. The church is for the administration of the grace of God and civil government is for the administration of the justice of God. We can get into trouble if we get those roles mixed up. Also, I find it interesting to think that if sin did not exist in the world we would likely not even need civil government.

I just read through this conversation from top to bottom, and would like to come back to the original question: Does gay marriage really affect Christianity?

No. People are free to choose and make whatever choices they want. The decisions they make, and the civil laws put in place as a result of those choices are not going to change what Christianity is, as it’s “laws” are defined by God in the Bible, and adopted and supported by those who accept Christianity as their faith.

However, religion CAN influence government, as was more apparent in the past with the Catholic Church than it is today. Influence is good, but once again it needs to come down to choice. God wants you to choose Him, and to love Him above all else, and then to love one another.

My faith is with God, and my guide is the Holy Spirit, the Bible and Jesus. Civil law will never change that. However, I do live in a country where I am free to cast my vote to enact laws that are in keeping with what I feel supports my beliefs.

For whatever its worth, I believe if consenting people choose to form a bond, whether that bond is taken under oath between themselves or under civil law, that is their choice.

I also feel that if the choice is to accept God and Christianity, then the guidelines defined under that religion should be respected and followed, which to me is pretty clear on the subject of the bond under God between a man and a woman. The doors to the church should always open, so as our arms and support to anyone who is seeking to have a relationship with God, and has chosen to have Christianity as their faith.

John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Galatians 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

YBFAM,
Dean Floyd

I believe that God invented the idea of civil government… the idea of government is a spiritual thing… though I don’t believe any government anywhere has done that well. I believe ours started out on the right track as a grand experiment to try to do it God’s way. One of the fruits of the Spirit is self control. When we are self controlled civil government (in an ideal world) should become unnecessary. If someone decides they want to go on a rampage killing and stealing, etc… then that is where civil government is supposed to step in and protect the innocent by stopping and punishing the evildoer. This type of action would reflect the face of God. Unfortunately, you probably won’t find the face of God very much in the halls of Congress these days… but God is still the rightful authority… it is His institution. The problem is not with God but with us.

Dear Rebecca,
Please do not put words in someones mouth! In this post, Jim did not once mention homosexuals.
We have friends who are, and they are loved by God and us. However, that doesn’t mean that he or I believe that we should change the definition of marriage or expand who can get married. I also don’t believe that we should open up marriage to polygamists. Where did you get the idea of raping children? That is so detestable to Jim, he couldn’t even say aloud what you falsely accused him of saying. Please stop jumping to wrong conclusions and saying someone said or wrote something which is the farthest from their minds. Please moderators, why are you allowing this kind of false accusation to be left on this site? I am deeply hurt and offended that someone could attack someone in my family like this!

The whole marriage thing was set up by God for a purpose. The Church is the bride and Christ is the groom and anything that violates that pattern with other configurations is bound for trouble. We can go ahead and create our own configurations but they won’t work. Check out Rob Bell’s book sometime:

http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Product/...

“God and sex go together. You can’t separate the two, says Rob Bell, because this physical world is intimately linked to deeper spiritual realities. And so, in order to make sense of sexuality, at some point you have to talk about God. With beauty and unusual insight, Sex God explores this connection.”

The original question here was whether homosexual marriage affects the Christian church or not.

I believe in marriage… The way I read the Bible, and interpret it based on hundreds of years of evaluation,
study, and philosophical opinion, my position is the traditional Christian opinion. God created man and woman
differently and designed marriage as a union between them. I believe this is God’s design for us for a lot of
good reasons, many of which we will never fully understand. I believe that the male and female characteristics that God designed into us are especially well suited for a secure, complete environment for raising children. In short, this model of the family is (maybe this is just my belief, because I surely don’t want to offend), this model of the family is what God intended for us, and He has told us this clearly in the Bible. I also acknowledge that many people have this male/female thing wired up differently. They are good people, and they have a right to the pursuit of happiness. I don’t hate them, I’m not afraid of them. But I don’t believe that God’s will was for us to invent a new kind of family model where anything goes, and to bless this in the name of Christ.

Of course, many of you will hold up all the failed marriages and broken homes and say that traditional marriage is no longer working. That is my point exactly. Once we start redefining Christianity to justify whatever we want, and once we forget that God’s kind of love requires sacrifice, unselfish discipline to hold a set of values up above our own, we make everything about ourselves. Then, no form of marriage will work, and no family environment will be suitable for raising children. This is just about a selfish rebellion to rules we don’t like.

What I find so offensive (and while many of you are quick to admonish me for being offensive, you just don’t care if you offend me).. what I find so offensive is that today’s culture is attacking this design God has for the family, and you are doing it in the name of Christianity. If the civil government wants to permit legal union between LGBT individuals, I respect that. If you want to say that’s Ok, I respect your right to say that. But please don’t say that this is acceptable within Christianity unless you are calling it something else. Call yourselves Reformed Christians and this is what you believe, and I respect your right to do that. You have no right to take the Christian belief system that is based on hundreds of years of interpreting Scripture a certain way and twisting it around to justify what you want.

I’ve read the RCA position on homosexuality, and the lengthy dissertation on why the RCA has turned 180 degrees on this issue.. and I want you to note that there is absolutely NO scriptural basis stated for their turn-around. Their only justification is compassion, and difficulty in standing up for their previous beliefs because they don’t want to offend. What is next? As long as this ‘Rock’ that has been the guiding value system for Christians for so many centuries is under re-evaluation.. then why wouldn’t it be Ok to make marriage temporary? Like in Germany where they are proposing term limits of 7 years on every marriage. How do you tell someone that divorce is not Ok? After all, two married people that are miserable surely have a right to be happy.. surely they too have a right to be elders in the church… never mind the fact that they made a PROMISE to each other, to God, and to the children they will probably bring into the world. Now they just don’t want to be under that promise any more because it’s not working out. But hey, we don’t want to offend them.. so maybe it’s Ok to renig on promises, too.
So, let’s make plural marriages Ok. On that one, you will probably find many references to it in the Bible. So, why is that one not Ok? Why is it not Ok for adults to have children in sexual relationships… as long as the child wants to do it, then who is getting hurt in this? Where do you draw the line, and why? And, what makes YOU right?

Is it Ok for a same-sex couple to bring children into the world? What does that child have to say about it? Does that child have any opportunity to have a mother and father model? Does that child have the security and nurturing only possible in a committed man/woman marriage with God at it’s core?

I know, a lot of heterosexual marriages create a completely intolerable environment for children, and many ‘creative’ families, including heterosexual unmarried couples, create a loving environment. We cannot hold up a lot of anecdotal evidence as the basis for what is right and wrong and desirable in God’s eyes.

Let me use this hypothetical situation to explain what I mean. Suppose a man breaks into my home and intends on brutalizing my family and killing them. Suppose I kill him in self defense. Is it Ok to kill him? No. It is never Ok to kill another human being. It may be necessary… it may even be the right thing to do. But there is nothing Ok about it.
The whole situation, and everything that led up to it, is not Ok. But we got there and had to deal with it.
Similar with same-sex marriage (or even het. sex unmarried couples) raising children. I don’t believe it’s Ok. It may happen, and we must tolerate it, and love the people in that situation… but it’s not Ok. We should not say it’s Ok.
Note: I’m not talking about adopting orphans and providing care, nurturing, opportunity, that would otherwise be unavailable. That’s just dealing with an unfortunate situation and tolerating the cause.

Maybe Christ felt it was a no-brainer.

It IS spelled out elsewhere in the Bible and New Testament

Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Why is homosexuality bring so much more discussion that our need to feed the hungry and orphans? Why don’t we spend far more time as Jesus did reaching out to those who need help, who are unloved, considered untouchable for whatever reason? This is not an easy topic and I truly wish it were more black and white but it’s not. And Jesus didn’t speak his final word on it. But he spoke about so many things we (definitly me) ignore on a daily basis about loving our neighbor, loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, taking care of the orphaned and widowed, ect? It seems that at some point we have to reevaluate how fuel we contribute to the fire and start doing the things that Jesus set out as example. I think this is a discussion i’m convicing myself more and more of—-that I need to learn to spend so much time talking about what I believe and actually doing something!

and does he know what he’s started here?

This issue is a litmus test of Christianity. Whittling away at the nuclear family and the respect for authority is, in one swoop, an attack on Christianity’s core values. What we have here is contemporary opinion overruling Biblical authority. Christ and God were not silent on this issue, but if you don’t want to hear something, you don’t have to.

The same reasons you use to justify your revision of the Bible with regard to gay marriage, will soon be your talisman for challenging many other values that have been the foundation of Christian faith. Soon it will seem to you that the Bible is more folklore than law.

In Revelations the Bible speaks of false prophets and false teachings in the end-times. It says that you will know truth from falsehood from the fruit it bears.

What is the fruit from a nuclear family… a man/woman married for life with God above all?
It’s a perfect environment for raising children. It’s a contract where a woman can (until death does part) be
secure in knowing that she’ll have food and shelter tomorrow. She will not be abandoned with small children to
care for. It’s an environment where children have both a mother and father model. More than that, children
that are a product of this nuclear family, and parents that honor God, usually have a heritage, grandparents
and all that. Children raised in a healthy mother/father family have an opportunity to, in a completely safe
environment, develop a loving intimate relationship with both sexes. This is huge later in life when they will
want to find their soul-mate, the person God designed specifically for them. By teaching your children the
importance of the nuclear family, and to respect sex as a gift from God to share with only one person, you
are enabling your child to sidestep peer pressure and sexual experimentation that has the potential for so
much destruction in their lives. It’s all good. If you can see anything at all that is not good about it, please
enlighten me.

What is the fruit of any other sexual relationship outside of this man/woman marriage, and nuclear family?
- Unwanted pregnancies. Far too often a woman finds herself with a child and no support. Far too often the
child is denied the mother/father relationship. The child is thrust into a life with no father model (and a
difficult time accepting God the Father). Far too often, both the man and woman in this situation have blown
their opportunity to find their real soul-mate. One or both of them are denied, or forfeit, a life-long relationship
with that soul-mate and/or their child. The child does not know their grandparents, and so on.
- There is the issue of abortion which is a natural result of this lifestyle. Far too often, people in a temporary
sexual relationship end up with an unwanted pregnancy and choose abortion as a convenient way out.
- Disease.
I don’t see how this relationship model bears any good fruit at all when it comes to the nuclear family and
passing on healthy sustainable family values to children.

Ok, I’m not living in a dreamland. I know that most people today, and especially in this area, are a product of a broken family. As a result, the whole thing is a turnoff. But why is this so common? Because along the way in the past several generations we have rejected God, revised His law, and put self-interest above all.
I really feel compassion for people who will, themselves, never experience this kind of family. And I realize that for many, this kind of relationship is impossible. I respect your right to find happiness, and a loving life-long relationship in whatever way you can. I’m really not judging people here, only the brokenness. You probably will never be able to see my point of view, but the sad thing is, you’re holding this brokenness up as a model and you’re telling your children ‘strive for this’. All I’m trying to say is that I believe it’s wrong to teach children to strive for the same brokenness that we’ve suffered from. I’m trying to say that I believe God has given us a relationship model that would have prevented all this brokenness, and we should teach the next generations to strive for that.

Immorality is a big deal in all of the scriptures. In Jesus’ day same sex marriage was prob unthinkable. The apostle Paul had to address immorality forcefully in the Greek culture that he encountered because they were far more liberal that the Jewish culture at the time. The fact that we are even arguing about this topic shows how much we have become like the Greek culture of Paul’s day… how low our culture has sunk.

One way I see this issue, and it would apply to divorce, infidelity, porn addiction, etc is that I believe we should set the bar “high”… according to what we understand from scripture… then apply lots of grace and mercy when we and others can’t make the mark… instead of moving the mark. btw divorce is hugely damaging… a good book on that topic is “Between Two Worlds”… http://www.betweentwoworlds.org/

This may seem to be the only issue.. or the biggest issue.. or the most important one, but to me, it’s not. It is only getting a lot of attention here because gay marriage, and sexuality was the topic of this forum. To me, this website is Christian turf, and I feel empowered to engage in discussion here within Christian context and ideals. In a civil context, I would take a softer position because I don’t expect everyone in the world to live by my Christian ideals.

You can substitute any of the following in the space and I’ll be just as passionate about it…
“Does _________ really affect Christianity”
- Divorce
- Pornography
- Drug/alcohol abuse
- War
- sexual promiscuity
- acceptance of the Bible’s authority

I’m not saying that this isn’t important. And I question my self as I think about how much more passionate I become in talking about the issues of homosexual marriages/civil unions than I am about talking about how the church falls short of taken care of the poor—This discussion here has definitly got me thinking about how I react to “hot topics” particularly since I have friends who are both more conservative and more liberal than I who I want to show love and truth to.

Since I think in analogies here is one that has hit me this year. I started going to the gym and really focusing on my health this summer. I didn’t discuss it a lot, mostly I just do it (although I can’t say I don’t complain about the sore muscles at times, lack of motivation or my crazy trainer). In just getting out there and taking better care of myself, other have noticed and have asked questions. they want to know what I’m doing to change my life. And I can tell them from experience what I have learned about exercise and diet that is helping me (what others have shown or taught me or what research has shown as well). People have been very receptive and I know some have told me that I have inspired them. But I don’t go around telling others what they should eat or how much time they should spend at the gym—I have been offended in the past by others doing this to me (even if I knew it to be truth). And when I falter there is grace—I have a goal that I can tell people about and know where I can change my paths.

So in our Christian ideals, how much more effective am I if I really live what I believe. If I do the things that Christ was so passionate about and really let others see the fruit of his work. Then when they come to me to ask, I have the experience and can point them in the right direction but it would allow me to build some repport first. I’m guilty…it’s easier to talk about the issues but to really live out Christ’s message is not so easy at times. That goal to be a “fully devoted follower of Christ” will be evidenced in my actions so when others see my faults it will be seen as the journey to where I’m going, not a strict statement on where I should be.

hopefully that made sense…it’s the end of the day. i’ll clarify if needed.